On 09/14/2012 06:56 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> For me, consciousness is a point of view, and any telic system has a point
> of view. Zombies are telic systems, no?
That's a great question. I would answer no. Zombies cannot be telic
(as I understand that word, of course) because they are enslaved by
their context. They are not ends in and of themselves. They are tools
whose purpose has been installed in them by some non-zombie actor.
FWIW, the Rosenites would disagree with me. They'd claim that a zombie
(were such possible) would be an organism closed to efficient cause
(agency). From this, they claim such closure allows anticipation,
which, in turn, allows final cause (purpose) ... all without any
requirement for _consciousness_ ... but with a requirement for
reflective self-reference (aka closure). Getting from reflection to
consciousness might not be that hard. And I support them in their
quest. ;-) But they haven't proven the closure to me. I believe we
organisms are only partially closed (to any of the causes). Complete
closure, in any of the causes, looks more like death to me. So, there's
something missing from their framework ... to the limited extent to
which I understand it.
Now, we might be able to reverse engineer a tool's purpose from its
attributes. And in that sense, a zombie might express a goal or purpose
and be called "telic" ... but that purpose would not be its _own_.
Perhaps a tool is telic, but it's not autotelic.
And this is where "faith" and "crazy" enter. When we can't reverse
engineer a person's purpose ... or more accurately ... when we can't
empathize ... we can't tell ourselves a story in which context their
actions make sense, then they're "acting on faith" or they're crazy. It
is this ability to empathize ... for your neurons to be stimulated
similarly to your referent's by observing their behavior ... that
presents us with the zombie paradox. On the one hand, telling a
believable story turns you into a _machine_, a tool, without personal
responsibility or accountability. ("My parents made me this way!") But
on the other hand, not telling a story makes you alien, crazy, a wart
that has to be removed.
Interesting people walk that fine line between adequately explaining
themselves but leaving just enough craziness and mystery to preserve
their identity, to avoid being a zombie. I usually fail and am often
accused of being a tool. >8^)
> Anyway, if you are curious, it's laid out in the conversation with the
> Devils Advocate on page 16 of the attached.
>
> Let me know what you think, if you have time to look at it.
I will read it. Thanks. But in case it's not obvious, you must know
that I don't take this stuff very seriously. I only think/talk about
this stuff to distract me from work. ;-) So, it's unlikely that I'll
be able to give it the attention that it and you deserve.
--
glen =><= Hail Eris!
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