So business people are anti-union not because unions interfere with the
running of their own businesses, but because unions interfere with their
ruining of other peoples businesses?

I think we could get a whole new freakonomics franchise out of this.

-- rec --

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 4:22 PM, David Eric Smith <[email protected]>
wrote:

> You know what I find curious about the various econ conversations around
> this topic?
>
> What I am about to say is not any deep insight, and I have heard Hanauer
> say the same things in his TED talk (nearly verbatim to the article), but
> just this time, reading it led to the realization.
>
> In the sense of where the agency lies, this is a simple non-cooperative
> game played by the owners of firms _against each other_.
>
> Powerless labor is essentially a background fabric that responds
> mechanically to the strategic choices of those who have the bargaining
> power over terms of employment, in the society as we currently have it
> structured.
>
> So essentially, as Hanauer says, every business wants its customers richer
> and its employees poorer.  That is: they want all _other_ employers to
> provide richer citizens who can be customers, while they then return less
> of that wealth to their own employees as members of the customer pool.
>
> It can be framed as one of the simple standard public-goods games, in
> which a public resource (a non-desperate pool of people who both sell wage
> labor and buy products and services) is either contributed to, or not, by
> firms' wage-setting policies.  The strategy of public contribution is
> dominated under the non-cooperative equilibrium, so the "businessman's
> tragedy of the commons" has everybody trying to cheat and not pay labor,
> until the whole populace is decimated and there are no customers.  This is
> the descent into the Walmart effect on towns, though the way it plays out
> into a final locked-in ruined state is more complicated than this simple
> game has the structure to describe.
>
> All this is obvious, and putting it into a game-theoretic frame doesn't
> really add anything to the substance of the argument, though for me it does
> state more transparently who the players are and makes the useful point
> that it is the firm owners competing with each other as adversaries that
> drive this dynamic.  Firm owners don't, as a class, destroy the economy
> through low wages because they are colluding: rather, they are being
> coordinated by the bad version of Adam Smith's invisible hand as they
> jointly independently and competitively choose the same destructive use of
> their power in the labor market.  This is why the notion that firms will
> "voluntarily" raise wages once a few do, mentioned by opponents in
> Hanauer's essay, is false (and disingenuously so).  Now, certainly,
> maintaining market power over wages by putting a fence around the labor
> pool is a collusive act, but it is carried out through different
> institutions (particularly, lobbying legislators etc.) and other levels
> than the competitive pricing one.  Thus, the game has a few layers with
> different structure that interact, but it wouldn't be all that hard to lay
> out which parts are which.
>
> The thing that surprises me -- given how many statements of the obvious
> Complex Systems academics make lots of press putting into formalism -- is
> that I haven't seen anyone write this down in those terms.
>
> Maybe everyone realizes it would be kind of silly, and that is why they
> don't bother to do it?  Would make sense, except that we see it done in so
> many other areas that are equally shallow and silly.
>
> ?
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On Aug 6, 2015, at 6:24 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> Nick Hanauer is clear that he is a multi-billionaire because Jeff Bezos
> called him back before another guy when Hanauer had some venture capital to
> invest.  See:
>
>
> http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-pitchforks-are-coming-for-us-plutocrats-108014.html#.VcJ-ElDnbqA
>
> Frank
>
> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Phone
> (505) 670-9918
> On 08/05/2015 01:20 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote:
>
>>    At the risk of being unpopular on this group, I would point out that
>> many gun-owners have made the argument that none of their guns have
>> spontaneously fired.  Referring back to Ethics - an arm (whether or not it
>> holds a sword) does not harm without voluntary movement by the person.
>>
>
> I don't think that's true at all.  It's not the voluntary movement that
> concerns most.  It's the involuntary movement that concerns most,
> especially liberals, because most liberals (I think) tend to give more
> weight to unintential or coincident circumstances than most conservatives.
>
> An analogous consideration is the (seemingly) popular conservative
> position that if you have succeeded at something (e.g. making money), it's
> because _you_ did it, not because you were lucky or fortunate.  (The
> alternative position that God did it for you, or allowed you to do it is an
> interesting hedge.)  Most liberals tend to place at least a little more
> weight on luck or circumstance when considering one's success.
>
> So, it's not spontanous firing the gun control people are worried about.
> It's not even the rational, intently intentional firing they're worried
> about.  It's the accidental and/or rash, semi-intentional firings they're
> worried about.  Hence the solution: remove the material cause.
>
> --
> ⇔ glen
>
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