David,
Thanks for pitching in. I have some hazy data concerning bobolink song that might relate to your hypothesis. We did two studies of bobolink song in relatively stable and relatively disrupted habitats. At least that is what we thought was the relevant variable. In the more stable environment, the song was hierarchically organized into strings of several songs that were widely shared between neighbors in the same field. Not fractal, exactly, but definitely, multi-level. In the more disrupted field, the songs were essentially random with no repeated long elements shared between neighbors. That’s all I got! Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Prof David West [mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm] Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:54 AM To: Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net>; Friam <Friam@redfish.com>; Kim Sorvig <sor...@cybermesa.com> Cc: friam-ow...@redfish.com; alberto.ala...@ug.uchile.cl; Jenny Quillien <jquill...@cybermesa.com> Subject: Re: FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs Nick, As asked (effect, affect impose?), my answer would be no. A partial test of the answer would be to see if the songs of birds living, even for multiple generations, in arguably non-fractal environments, e.g. mid-town Manhattan, lost their fractal nature. This test would not rule out the possibility that the 'evolution' of songs was isomorphic to the evolution of bird morphology AND isomorphic to an evolving fractal environment. A different way to approach the question might be to ask if "fractality" is somehow a substrate upon which living things rely in order to be recognized as "alive." Two things lead me to ask the question in this manner. First, fractal geometry is used to generate digital landscapes and digital life forms, e.g. trees, with results that are far more "lifelike" than attempts based on other graphical systems — Ed Angel should enlighten us here because it is his area of expertise, not mine. Second, you have hear me talk of Christopher Alexander and his search for the Nature of Order. He posits fifteen properties (e.g. centers, boundaries, alternating repetition, contrast, deep interlock and ambiguity, etc.) that, he says, are fundamental and essential to the creation of built environments that have "liveness." It has always seemed to me that the compositions created using these fifteen properties would also be, in some manner, fractal. Jenny might have ideas as to the second reason, but she is in Amsterdam for six weeks preparatory to a move there in the fall and might not see the question on the list. I have asked Richard Gabriel for an answer in his role as another expert on Alexander. davew On Wed, Feb 15, 2017, at 03:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: Helloooo, List, I would like to introduce to you Alberto Alaniz (who describes himself in the communication below). I “met” him on Research Gate when he downloaded a paper of mine on the structural organization of bird song. I noticed that he was writing from a Landscape Department, and I thought, “A landscape person who is interested in birdsong! He must be interested in fractals!” And I was right. So please welcome him. Steve please note? The idea of his that I particularly want to hear you discuss is his notion that fractality (is that a word?) in one domain can effect, affect, impose? fractality in another. So is there a relationship between the fractality which my research revealed in the organization of bird song and the fractality of the landscapes on which bird behavior is deployed. I particularly wonder what Kim Sorvig and Jenny Quillen and ProfDave think about this, but also wonder if others on the list could put an oar in. Thanks, Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Alberto Jose Alaniz [mailto:alberto.ala...@ug.uchile.cl] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 2:21 PM To: nthomp...@clarku.edu <mailto:nthomp...@clarku.edu> Subject: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs Dear Nick I apreciate so much your invitation, so i really intrested in participate of your discussion group. I am a young researcher finishing my MS, and this types of oportunities look very good for my, specially if i can interact with other scientics. About your question, of course you can share my oppinion, now if you want i can writte a compleate opinion in extenso, and i will send to you tomorrow in the afternon. My field of study is the ecologial modelling and the conservation biology, the last year i published my firsts papers in Biological conservation and International Journal of Epidemiology, the first one about ecosystem conservation and the secondth is a global model of exposure risk to Zika virus. Currently im working in ecosystems and in assessment of habitat loss in forest specialist species (with Kathryn Sieving from University of Florida). Alberto Alaniz Baeza Lic. en Geografía, Geógrafo & Magíster (c) Áreas Silvestres y Conservación Becario, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ambientes Fragmentados Departamento de Ciencias Biológicas Animales, U. de Chile Investigador, Laboratorio de Ecología de Ecosistemas Departamento de Recursos Naturales Renovables, U. de Chile Académico, Centro de Formación Técnica del Medio Ambiente IDMA +56996097443 https://albertoalaniz.wordpress.com/
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