I make a similar argument about gun control.  Most of my friends are advocates 
of stronger regulation.  They *think* I'm also an advocate of such.  And, 
objectively, I am because I sometimes parrot a subset of their arguments.  E.g. 
I argue that there are multiple types of cause (perhaps 4: formal, final, 
efficient, material).  And, yes the gun nuts hinge their arguments on efficient 
cause, which is fine.  But it's irresponsible to ignore the material cause: 
guns.  But those who know me, know I'm an inherent supporter of weapon freedom. 
 Anyone ought to be able to own (and use) pretty much any weapon they want.  I 
don't vote that way, though.  And most of my acquaintances don't know that 
about me.  My 2-faced position depends fundamentally on my belief that human 
life just isn't that important.  I think, say, cougars[†] and bacteria have 
just as much right to life as humans.  And, to some extent, humans are 
destroying the ecosystem.  So, it's difficult for me to keep a straight face 
and claim that human life is somehow sacred. (It's even easier now that I have 
cancer.)  So, yeah, more guns = more dead people.  Personally, that's OK with 
me.  Politically, however, it's a reality and if we all *understand* that more 
guns means more dead people ... and we don't want more dead people, then the 
only rational thing is to more strictly regulate (or eliminate) guns.

[†] 
https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2018/09/hunt_for_killer_cougar_in_oreg.html

The Peterson/Harris argument is mostly about dogma.  But if we munge the 
words/concepts a bit, we could just as easily make it about schema, where some 
of the variables are bound and others are free.  I think if we did that, it 
would be trivial to admit both that this weaker form of dogma (arrived at by 
bio- or cultural evolution) does not disallow the rationalist the freedom to 
update the schema whenever some multi-objective optimization algorithm suggests 
it needs updating.  I think, the problem with the 2nd video (their 2nd night of 
discussion) was that they just danced around our tendency to dichotomize 
*everything* always.  It's just another example of how artificial 
discretization prevents people who agree on 90% of everything from codifying 
where they disagree.

On 09/14/2018 10:03 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I think you could make the case that ISIS terrorists are terrorists because 
> it has given them something to believe-in and something to do with their 
> lives.
> 
> It is only with the application of a prevalent value system that we equate 
> terrorists with badness.   Many junkies outside 7-Elevens are lost souls and 
> will have abbreviated lives.    They are unable to thrive.   In contrast, a 
> military commander in Hamas living in the Gaza Strip may have miserable 
> conditions to cope with, but they are respected by a group of people and 
> aren't depressed.    This was sort of Ted Kaczynski's point that technology 
> raises the bar to the point many people can't function any more.
> 
> Another example are the stories 
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/opinion/911-lessons-veteran.html> of 
> (U.S.) soldiers who live in terrible conditions but bond tightly with their 
> peers, people they might never be close to in civilian life. 
> 
> Objectively they are in danger every day, but psychologically they crave the 
> bond and the engagement in the fight.
> 
>  
> 
> Either moral relativists or full-on nihilists see that threads of subjective 
> reality can and sometimes should be independent.   I would argue that is 
> useful on average at a universal level because it expands understanding 
> rather than being prescriptive.    Peterson’s own arguments about how men 
> rise to greatness in organizations admits that things can take care of 
> themselves. 

-- 
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