To be clear, my question was whether therapy changed the brain in similar ways 
to how antidepressants change the brain, which was the (unjustified) claim made 
in the article.  It just seems like a fantastical claim to me, if for no other 
reason than that there are different types of antidepressant.  So, I might be 
able to justify saying "Different antidepressants don't even change the brain 
in similar ways to each other, much less to other, non-antidepressant drugs."

So, therapy changes the brain and antidepressants change the brain.  Fine.  Are 
those changes similar?  And if so, how are they similar?

On 3/7/19 8:41 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> Sorry.  See correction, below.  The point is, if the therapist convinces the 
> patient, by rational argument, to do the Right Thing, whatever the right 
> thing would be, we don’t tend to think of this as a brain change.  But of 
> course it is.  So, what is this odd dualism by which some brain changes are 
> REALLY brain changes, and some are not?  Thus, we see again, as we must 
> always see, (};-)] that brain state materialism is a crock. 
> 
> 
> Of course therapy alters the brain.  How on earth else could it work?  So, 
> the question wouldn’t come up if people didn’t suppose that some brain 
> alterations and */[NST==>are<==nst] /*not REALLY brain alterations.  I don’t 
> know how those people make that distinction.
> 

> *From:*Friam [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 07, 2019 6:20 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] is this true?
> 
>  
> 
> Therapy and drugs can certainly change a life.  I had a friend who worked for 
> a research organization at the University of Pittsburgh.  He had a Ph.D. in 
> psychology.  At the time I worked in the Robotics Institute at Carnegie 
> Mellon. He became interested in my work and wondered if there were 
> opportunities for him there.  He investigated and was offered a position.  As 
> a faculty member your job was to find a problem solve it and publish the 
> results and then seek funding for further work but usually you had the 
> freedom to pursue whatever problem you wanted to within reason.  He was not 
> used to this lack of structure and he became unhappy.  One night he called me 
> and was in desperate straits.  I did what it could to encourage him.   He 
> entered therapy with a psychiatrist.  Over the months he became more 
> productive.  After making some contributions in scheduling and planning 
> software as I recall, he went to work for a startup and did some excellent 
> work developing visualization
> tools.  He was head of a group of a dozen or more developers and scientists.  
> The group became a separate business.  After a couple of years it was bought 
> by a fortune 50 company and he was made head of the division it became.
> 
> I don't know whether or how his brain changes but his life certainly did.
> 
> Frank
> 
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 4:58 PM Prof David West <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> 
>     ketamine would not be the first drug that was utilized to augment 
> therapy. MDA, MDMA, even LSD were all studied as ways to enhance, optimize, 
> therapy.
> 
>     An therapy, some kinds of it anyway, have also been demonstrated to 
> produce very mild altered states of consciousness — somewhat less than 
> hypnosis, somewhat greater than attending an old fashioned Catholic Mass.
> 
>     davew
> 
>     On Thu, Mar 7, 2019, at 3:25 PM, glen ∅wrote:
> 
>         From 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/07/opinion/ketamine-depression.html
> 
>         > After all, therapy and prescription drugs like antidepressants 
> change the brain in surprisingly similar ways.
> 
>          
> 
>         Does therapy exhibit changes in the brain similar to drugs (like 
> antidepressants or not)?  I wish the author had provided a citation or 2.
> 

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