A chimp yes; all the rest no. I had a friend who had an African Gray parrot. He could say a number of things but there was no "there" there.
In my opinion. On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:57 PM Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 5/23/20 9:15 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote: > > The observer problem. Does it require a human to do the observation? What > about a parrot? A chimpanzee? An amoeba? A Turing machine? > > God, Gawdess, Gaia, Collective Intelligence? > > > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 9:47 AM Prof David West <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Peirce: >> >> "To satisfy our doubts, therefore, it is necessary that a method should >> be found by which our beliefs may be determined by nothing human, but by >> some external permanency—by something upon which our thinking has no >> effect. ... Such is the method of science. Its fundamental hypothesis, >> restated in more familiar language, is this: There are Real things, whose >> characters are entirely independent of our opinions about them; those Reals >> affect our senses according to regular laws, and, though our sensations are >> as different as our relations to the objects, yet, by taking advantage of >> the laws of perception, we can ascertain by reasoning how things really and >> truly are; and any man, if he have sufficient experience and he reason >> enough about it, will be led to the one True conclusion." >> >> The above quote is a context from which I am about to take words and ask >> questions. Those more familiar with the Peirce corpus in toto must admonish >> me if I am being unfair, i.e. this quote is an outlier or an exception to >> Peirce in general. >> >> 1- If "There are Real things, upon which our thinking has no effect," and >> there are"beliefs"" and "doubts" and "reasoning" that are, arguably, >> affected by our thoughts: >> a. Is Peirce a dualist? A Cartesian dualist that distinguishes between >> an external permanency and internal thought? >> b. Are beliefs, doubts, reasoning 'Real things'? >> >> 2- Quantum physics has an "observer problem" that seems to imply that the >> the "characters of Real things" are, in fact, affected by human thinking, >> or, at least, human attention." >> a. Are there 'Real things'? >> >> 3- Weak postmodern objection: all beliefs and all methods are determined >> by the human, technically the social, and there is no objective criteria by >> which to give privilege over one human determined method/belief over >> another.. >> a. Does Peirce have grounds to privilege Reason over other >> methods/beliefs, e.g. 'meditation', 'faith'? >> >> 4- Stronger postmodern objection: "the laws of perception," [the rules >> of] reasoning," "sufficient experience," and "reason enough," taken >> together, constrain the possible 'solution space' too severely; the 'one >> [provisionally] True conclusion" is foregone — a product of the process, >> not congruence with any "external permanency." >> a. What are the "laws" that govern how the Real affects our senses? >> b. What are the "laws of perception?" >> c. Does "sufficient experience" and "reason enough" mandate a narrow, >> and intolerant, orthodoxy? >> >> davew >> >> >> >> -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . >> ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> >> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> > > -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... > ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . > ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > -- Frank Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918
-- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
