Well, to an extent, we can assert that molecular interactions and sub-visible processes are real as long as we *admit* that our assertions are, at least in part, unverifiable, since we cannot experience them directly. Any experience we might have of molecules would be mediated by our reified thoughts, our models. But as long as you have things like hands, skin, and touch receptors, you can directly experience a rock you pick up. So, sure, you can have the same *thick* modeling structure surrounding pebbles on the beach as you have surrounding molecules. But with pebbles on the beach you have something *more*, direct experience.
In that sense, I'd counter your argument and say emergent phenomena are very indirect as compared to pebbles on the beach. Whether they (emergent phenomena) are more indirect than molecules or not is irrelevant. Again, I want to talk about jaws flapping and lips moving. Not hoity-toity things like molecules or quantum superposition. I know you will resist that. But at least I can keep repeating it and hope that you might one day talk about: Motor Imagery of Speech: The Involvement of Primary Motor Cortex in Manual and Articulatory Motor Imagery https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6579859/ Observation-execution matching and action inhibition in human primary motor cortex during viewing of speech-related lip movements or listening to speech https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0028393211001801?via%3Dihub On 6/9/20 10:13 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > It seems to me that when CHON molecules chain up and become lipids, proteins, > sugars etc. and those in turn self-organize into macromolecules of various > kinds including membranes, vesicles, microtubules, then organelles, cells, > organs, organisms... > > I am not sure if by your logic/language that none of those "patterns" upon > which we impose "language" or "stories" to describe their (seemingly?) > pervasive patterning, are real? Or going down from the atomic elements of > C, H, O, N that even those exist because apparently/assuredly they are > somehow composed of protons, neutrons, electrons... then below that quarks or > quantum-gravity loops or 9D strings or ... > > Again, I'm not trying to corner you or argue for a particular perspective, > just trying to observe, and learn from your Cook Ding > <https://navigatingthezhuangzi.weebly.com/cook-ding-cuts-up-an-ox.html> > technique. > > If I were to try to *argue* against what I think you are saying, I would try > to say that these higher level patterns (e.g. songlines) are emergent and > therefore as "real" as atomic elements, organic molecules, macromolecules... > on up? Seeking a monomolecular occams razor. -- ☣ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
