The bite causes the irritation causes the itch causes the slap causes the removal of the mosquito. And the slap causes the mosquito to be gone and relieves the irritation. So that is definitely downward causation. But this is all in the context of a complex organization that has already been assembled and “designed” for self maintenance. To it begs the question I was [ineptly] trying to ask. How do such control systems get assembled in the first place if NOT through the mediation of group selection?
N I suppose that the local irritation causes the itch is upward causation, that “itch” is a state of the whole. Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 1:37 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats Scratching oneself? I'm not trying to be a pain. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 1:32 PM <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: If one allows stygmergy as a form of downward causation, I can understand it. So I guess I am looking for the simplest kind of example of self assembly: i.e., where something of a higher order improves itself by improving the arrangement of its parts. Or places constraints on its parts to be good for itself. There may be a thousand examples. I just can’t think of one that doesn’t involve group selection. N Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 1:16 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats I'm not Marcus but a classical example is mental events causing physical events. Note the use of mental language. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 1:12 PM <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Marcus, can't claim to understand you fully, here, but your use of the word, sovereignty, made me think you might have something to contribute to a quandary I found myself in recently. I was on a zoom with a bunch of people. First they talked about emergence, and I figured I understand that. Wimsatt: a property is emergent if it is a property of a whole that depends on the order or arrangement of the parts. So, the ability of sticks to bear weight depends on their arrangement as triangles. So far, so good. But then the began to talk about "downward" causation, and I realized that I did not know, nor have I ever known, what people mean by "downward" causation. Do you have some simple models of it in mind that even I could understand? Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 9:17 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats Using statistical mechanics to inspire a stable and universal functional form that evolves in time is one way to make a model of social systems. But even with that for model of the physical world, there are many possible models for control systems that could layer on top of it. If there are no shared concept types in these different models, there's nothing to do but go back to simulating the physics to determine what could happen next. Simulating these physics takes energy that is of no discernable value to users of any one model so at some point there will be conflict over that energy. The Libertarian claims that there is something in common between the users of these models, but it is nothing more than story that serves her purposes. There is no reason not to violate her sovereignty if the reward/risk is acceptable. -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of ? glen Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 7:18 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats Well, sure. But the assumptions and simplifications are piling up fast. With anarcho-capitalism, I was trying to suggest a governing system that relies on as few assumptions as possible. And my sense is that social democracy relies on more assumptions (like the existence of stable functional forms). On September 14, 2020 6:13:33 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: >It depends whether you think of "static" as some circumscribed state or >"static" as a fixed functional form. (The latter still allowing for a >dynamical system.) The appropriation/application of the notion of a >"phase transition" would probably argue for the fixed functional form >on the basis of physics. -- glen ⛧ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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