Ahhh Nick, Such limited vision. You may be correct vis-a-vis money (as nothing more than a pathological distortion — I have no experience) but are _so wrong_, at least potentially about sex. Like drugs, it can be a gateway to realms of knowledge, inter-personal and social connectivity, human and trans-human experience.
davew On Tue, May 4, 2021, at 9:42 PM, [email protected] <mailto:thompnickson2%40gmail.com> wrote: > Dave, > > No you can’t have read it. Otherwise your life would have been completely > transformed because you would have come to belief that sex- and mone- seeking > are pathological distortions of human ambition. > > I pretty sure nobody has read it because, so far as I know, nobody has been > thus affected. Ergo, … > > Nick > Nick Thompson > [email protected] > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 4, 2021 8:45 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI > > *Diamond Age: Or, A Young Woman's Illustrated Primer* by Neal Stephenson > > Required reading for any discussion of economics when the robots produce > abundance, or things are too cheap to meter. > > Nick won'ty read, pretty sure Steve and other already have. > > davew > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Steve Smith wrote: > > I'm glad I held back from throwing in my own $.002 on this topic > > earlier... I like the general arc it is on and is being articulated much > > more gesturally than I think I am capable of. I can't say I *fully* > > follow Glen's use of reduction and reconstruction in technical detail > > well, but it suggests an abstraction that rings hopeful if not > > (necessarily) true for me. > > > > Given that my trite belief that "when the road hazards are coming at us > > faster than we can see much less avoid, that we should pump the brakes > > and downshift" is based in an inapt (inept?) metaphor, and that in any > > case we aren't going to do a whole lot of self-limiting under the > > current aesthetic we (mostly) share (pedal to the metal and let 'er > > roar!). > > > > The Prepper/Survivalist community is mostly about trying to gather up > > the resources they think will help them survive a crash or more > > importantly the aftermath. The post/transhumanists seem to be trying > > to figure out how to strapon (or grow out of their own bodies') wings > > and jet packs and road armor to escape or survive the inevitable crash. > > > > Careening vehicle metaphors aside, I'm pleased to hear more and more > > discussion that frames the economic aspect of "the culture war" as > > *post* rather than *anti* capitalism. Whether technology makes > > *everything* too cheap to meter or not, I think the relative abundance > > of manufactured goods as well as commodities for the top 50% of the > > first world is confronting the *scarcity* model that was (maybe?) > > necessary to keep the engine (oops, vehicles made it back in) of > > consumerist markets accelerating. > > > > I am not sure that Yang has all (or even many) of the answers but I do > > give him great credit for having promoted the question on the national > > (and world?) stage with his run for President. I had thought about UBI > > and similar mechanisms before but somehow his presentation or affect or > > maybe just timing brought it to me in a much more compelling way than > > before. > > > > I very much appreciate Glen's point about UBI being an intrinsically > > capitalist proposal to try to keep their system going as long as > > possible, I just hope we will use whatever time that buys us without > > significant disruption to plan out what things might/could look like on > > the other side of a revolution in (socioeconomic?) thinking that now > > seem inevitable to me. When I used to ski (poorly), on any given run, > > there was likely a brief period of time when I realized I as absolutely > > going to crash and burn, and if I had any choice in the matter it was > > whether I was going to do it earlier rather than later and whether I was > > going to take a big bite of ice-slicked mogul, some off-run powder, or > > maybe a tree. Maybe I'll just leap off a mogul and evaporate in the > > sunlight mid-air (Kurzweil's Singularity)? > > > > - Steve > > > > On 5/4/21 12:52 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > > > Reduction. All things in moderation, including moderation. Reduction is a > > > triumph, if it captures what you're looking for. And fiat currency has > > > done great things for the world, a cultural technology that allows us to > > > explore possibilities we wouldn't have otherwise explored. Financial > > > instruments have allowed us to spread ownership across demographics that > > > would never have been allowed based on real property. > > > > > > But those instruments are a reconstruction of the space that currency > > > reduced out. And I think we're seeing that the reconstruction is trending > > > dysfunctional. So, it's time to reconsider the initial reduction and, > > > importantly, why the reconstruction isn't a cover for the original (full) > > > space. > > > > > > We are doing that in both ad-hoc ways (e.g. the Psychology today article, > > > finding other dimensions by which to bolster the reduction) and > > > fundamental ways (e.g. transhumanist experimentation of "what are we"). > > > UBI is a reasonable suggestion to reduce suffering. But, ultimately, it's > > > a capitalist suggestion, proposed by *conservatives* who want to prolong > > > the status quo, to milk the current system for as long as they can. > > > That's OK, of course. We try to balance exploitation with exploration and > > > nobody knows crisply when to emphasize which. > > > > > > > > > On 5/4/21 11:16 AM, [email protected] > > > <mailto:thompnickson2%40gmail.com> wrote: > > >> Ah, now THIS is the Glen I know and love. Your 10:00 post rekindled old > > >> rage concerning the incentive-value of money. Here I go. Up on my high > > >> horse. Hi, Ho, Silver. Budda bump, budda bump, budda bump, bump, bump. > > >> > > >> The very little Marxism I know tells me that it is the "triumph" of > > >> capitalism to reduce all relationships to money. This seems right to > > >> rich people because the richer you get, the truer it becomes. I can > > >> imagine Besos, Gates, and Musk falling asleep at night, musing about > > >> which of them will first reach a trillion. If you've lost your soul and > > >> you've lost your wife, what else could they possibly want. Such people > > >> even turn women into a kind of coinage. (Cue Waspish Moral Outrage). > > >> But isn't that the point of UBI; that it frees people to think about > > >> something else? And yes, what IS this so-called "productivity"? The > > >> "happy ditch digger" and the "carefree slave" are all part of the same > > >> self-serving capitalist iconography. I am sure there are people who > > >> love to dig ditches, but if that's what they love to do, give them a > > >> thousand dollars a month for free and let them dig ditches for Habitat > > >> for Humanity in Peru, if that's what they feel like doing. > > >> > > >> Glen, keeping your ad hominem firmly in mind, I am again going to use > > >> your post as opportunity to flog my old work which argues that it is > > >> capitalism's reduction of all ambition to coinage that makes it so > > >> toxic. > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
