I am not, but will purchase and read asap. davew
On Sat, May 8, 2021, at 12:30 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > Dave - > I think I have referenced these before but your anecdotes here remind me of > Jim Scott's "Against the Grain" and "The Art of Not Being Governed". I > wonder if you are familiar with any of his work? > - Steve > On 5/7/21 8:02 AM, Prof David West wrote: >> Russ, >> >> Your intuition is partly correct: these societies, for the most part, were >> embedded in an extensive cultural web of kinship, norms, rituals, world-view >> — like any culture or any people. It appears to us that their culture was >> more pervasive, expressed more consistently, and "enforced" more >> dramatically, but that is not necessarily true. It would be the case that >> those participating in those cultures would not experience their culture as, >> in any way, oppressive. In fact, they would be just as oblivious to their >> culture as we are to our own. >> >> None of these cultures were authoritarian in any sense. Leadership was >> situational - a "war chief" when threatened, a "forager chief" during the >> harvest season. The only permanent leadership position would be the "shaman" >> who was, more often than not, female. >> >> Some of the societies were hierarchical and authoritarian to some degree, >> like the Inca. But even they were able to establish and maintain a vast >> trading network from southern Chile to Meso-America and even into what is >> not the southwest US - all without money. Quiipu, knotted strings, recorded >> facts or information, like how much of what commodity was sent where by >> whom, but no concept of money or 'exchange rate'. >> >> All of these societies were 'brittle' in the sense that none of them >> survived encounter with European colonizers. >> >> If you ever have the inclination, explore water management on Bali. The >> indigenous culture allocated water among rice fields based on a complicated >> system of myths, rituals, and interpreted omens, a classical intra-cultural >> solution, The Dutch came along and implemented a "scientific" water >> management system and immediately lost 50% of rice production and initiated >> a decade of near starvation before they gave up and let the priests take >> over water management again. >> >> Bali is an excellent example of how an optimum solution to a complex (in the >> SFI sense) problem "evolves" over generations of trial and error with >> successes preserved via myth and ritual. >> >> A related curiosity (for extra credit) — in every hunter-gatherer society of >> which anthropology is aware, the men hunt and the women gather. To date, no >> one has been able to explain why. It cannot be explained by maternal roles >> or physical capacity. The range of theories proposed and debunked over the >> years is quite large and often very amusing. >> >> davew >> >> >> On Thu, May 6, 2021, at 10:20 AM, Russ Abbott wrote: >>> Thanks, David. >>> >>> I have no background in Economic Anthropology and am interested in hearing >>> about societies that function effectively without something like money. My >>> intuition (perhaps wrong) is that the only ways to make that work over >>> extended periods are rigid societal structures (enforced, perhaps by >>> powerful, well-established cultural norms) or force/power (as in >>> authoritarian societies). In both cases, it seems likely (although, again, >>> I could be wrong) that such societies will be quite static, inflexible, and >>> brittle in the face of challenges. Are the societies you cite different >>> from such paradigms? >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:30 AM Prof David West <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Russ raised the question about alternatives to capitalism. A quick perusal >>>> of a good Economic Anthropology textbook can provide numerous examples. >>>> Many of which worked at a scale far greater than 150 people. Example: an >>>> Aboriginal economic system that incorporated multiple tribes in an area >>>> from the north coast of Australia to the interior of the continent; or, >>>> pre-Columbian Incas. >>>> >>>> These systems were established and maintained by being embedded in the >>>> overall culture: i.e. because of a vast web of kinship, inter-personal, >>>> obligation, concrete resources, myth, and ritual. In contrast, modern >>>> economic systems (capitalism or Marxism, or ...) are divorced from >>>> "reality" and exist in a world of abstractions. >>>> >>>> Christopher Alexander illustrated this distinction with regard to >>>> architecture and the difference between what he called the selfconscious >>>> and the non-selfconscious process of building. In the latter, the >>>> knowledge of how to build and maintain a house, for example, was embedded >>>> in myth and ritual and "common sense knowledge." Ideal designs, ones >>>> adapted to the context — physical and cultural — evolved over time and >>>> preserved by being embedded in the culture. >>>> >>>> Selfconscious design is epitomized by academic schools of architecture >>>> where abstract concepts of design arise and "good" design is judged by >>>> conformity to the abstractions and is divorced from reality. >>>> >>>> Similarly with economic systems. The root of all evil is money which is an >>>> abstraction. How much "wealth" is grounded in abstractions of abstractions >>>> of abstractions in capitalist economic systems? Marxism might be >>>> marginally better than capitalism simply because it has never had the time >>>> an opportunity to develop the same kind of meta-abstraction structures >>>> that are prevalent in capitalism. >>>> >>>> Human evolved a left-brain and it is our ruination. >>>> >>>> davew >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 6, 2021, at 5:21 AM, David Eric Smith wrote: >>>>> Hi Pieter, >>>>> >>>>> Not that it matters (to anything), but No, zero support for Chomsky from >>>>> me. >>>>> >>>>> He is the archetype of a bully and a demagogue. It was his MO in >>>>> linguistics his entire career, a field that was susceptible to that sort >>>>> of thing, and to which he has done great harm. It’s a shame, too, >>>>> because as you say, he is smart, and some of his early ideas were >>>>> interesting and insightful. >>>>> >>>>> That is not an ad hominem to the side, it is a propos de his political >>>>> writing. I do think some of his criticisms of the predatoriness of the >>>>> American system are correct, and they benefit from his intelligence and >>>>> energy. But I think your criticism that all he does is stand in judgment >>>>> from the sidelines and not bear human responsibility for what happens >>>>> when you get things wrong is just the right one. >>>>> >>>>> Have you noticed that there are some people who seem deeply grounded in a >>>>> concern for others’ wellbeing, and seem to work tirelessly to help? I >>>>> have the impression that, for instance, Karen Bass (a US congresswoman >>>>> who was for a time considered for Vice President) is such a person. The >>>>> best kind of people who rise within civil rights movements and causes. I >>>>> am struck by how often they have no interest in blaming and judging; it >>>>> is a distraction from the work they are trying to do. >>>>> >>>>> On the other side, there are people who choose causes that may have >>>>> righteous elements, but seem to choose them for the reinforcement of >>>>> identity it gives them to stand in condemning judgment on others. That >>>>> is all I can see in Chomsky. It doesn’t mean everything he says is >>>>> wrong, and criticisms have a place. But a premise that there is any kind >>>>> of anarchism that doesn’t instantly get taken over by gangs seems way too >>>>> anti-empirical to be claimed as a “smart” position. >>>>> >>>>> But fair enough to argue the claims, >>>>> >>>>> Eric >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 6, 2021, at 4:28 PM, Pieter Steenekamp >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have a little book On Anarchism by Noam Chomsky. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chomsky is IMO a very smart person and it's maybe worthwhile to pay >>>>>> attention to his ideas? >>>>>> >>>>>> Although I don't want to reject his ideas, my mind is open, I'm not >>>>>> convinced it will work out as intended. The problem is he offers >>>>>> anarchism as an idea without specifics of how to implement it and how >>>>>> the valid concerns about it can be addressed. >>>>>> >>>>>> At least, Chomsky's abhorrence of capitalism will maybe find fertile >>>>>> ground among some members of this group? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 08:34, Russ Abbott <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> Eric, You explained many of the problems in much more depth and detail >>>>>>> than I did. Well done. Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 5, 2021, 4:46 PM David Eric Smith <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Yes, agreed, Russ, with amendments. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wrote some long awful thing on this yesterday and had the good >>>>>>>> manners to delete without sending. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think capitalism isn’t even about money; there are two issues: >>>>>>>> capitalist property rights and monetary or financial layers in the >>>>>>>> economy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know Glen doesn’t like the terms “means of production”, but we can >>>>>>>> capture a big subset with an everyday term like “tools”. Tools are >>>>>>>> durable things, built at cost with the intent that they can be >>>>>>>> repeatedly used. They are not a monetary store of value, but they >>>>>>>> are, in other material senses, a store of transformational power over >>>>>>>> things one wants to transform. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But as soon as there is a tool, there is a decision problem over how >>>>>>>> it can be used and by whom. I think “ownership rights” is the name we >>>>>>>> give to any solution to (meaning, “commitment to some protocol for”) >>>>>>>> that problem. With ownership then comes at least an incentive, and in >>>>>>>> many real, limited-information settings, a realized ability, for the >>>>>>>> de facto owner of a tool to guide where the productive output using >>>>>>>> the tool goes. It’s kind of the default basic-layer dynamic that >>>>>>>> follows from tool creation and tool ownership. We can understand how >>>>>>>> tricky that instability can be to manage from study of these intricate >>>>>>>> and fancy mechanisms in hunter-gatherer societies to blunt the >>>>>>>> concentration of power (arrow-sharing that guides who gets meat; the >>>>>>>> kind of thing Sam Bowles studies). Ownership provides a channel for >>>>>>>> itself to concentrate, and to concentrate other things (obliquely, >>>>>>>> referring to “wealth” by whatever measure). That seems to me the >>>>>>>> essence of the capitalist problem, which then takes various forms >>>>>>>> depending on social institutional choices. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It seems to me that we don’t want to give up tools, so we can’t give >>>>>>>> up the problem of committing to some solution for ownership, and with >>>>>>>> that, we have to face up to the complex problem of regulating against >>>>>>>> the tendency of ownership to concentrate its de facto power by >>>>>>>> redirecting the proceeds of things produced. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is why I don’t buy, as an empirical matter, Pieter’s optimism >>>>>>>> about things’ becoming too cheap to meter. In some ways, and in >>>>>>>> projections to some dimensions, yes, that is a fair description. >>>>>>>> Computer operating systems used to be pay-per-version, now many are >>>>>>>> free. Communication used to be charge-per-use, now much of it is paid >>>>>>>> for by advertising (“free” only in an extreme distortion of what >>>>>>>> dimensions carry value, but nonetheless one that has taken most people >>>>>>>> some years to become aware of). But the very way the rise of the >>>>>>>> concentration of wealth in the Tech sector before, and even more >>>>>>>> grotesquely so during the pandemic, is raising all the old arguments >>>>>>>> about the capitalist class, seems to me to show even in quite abstract >>>>>>>> domains of information and coordination services, that tool ownership >>>>>>>> has default instabilities that always act unless we can find effective >>>>>>>> regulatory strategies to blunt them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In this sense I think Glen does make the most important point, which >>>>>>>> is that if there is a strong argument about UBI, its context is >>>>>>>> overwhelmingly about the problem that innovations in absolute output >>>>>>>> seem always coupled to concentrations of inequality. Relative to >>>>>>>> that, almost everything Shapiro said in that piece was tropes that, at >>>>>>>> 15 places in the short talk, gave me an internal impulse to go cite >>>>>>>> the person who shows they are tropes by providing the good-faith and >>>>>>>> well thought-out counterargument. It is a bit sad that Yang doesn’t >>>>>>>> feel able (and maybe isn’t able) to take that bull by the horns and >>>>>>>> say that this is where the UBI question lives. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To me, money is a somewhat separate question: a mechanism for the >>>>>>>> distribution of permissions, communication, authority, etc., which >>>>>>>> makes certain coordination problems tractable that otherwise wouldn’t >>>>>>>> be. I don’t think we want to give up the ability to use that, and >>>>>>>> even if some did, so many others don’t that there probably is no path >>>>>>>> for society that keeps it gone. But, as many in the thread have so >>>>>>>> well said already, money is a terrible dimension-reducer, and the >>>>>>>> problems of “store of transformation power” that come with tool >>>>>>>> ownership, then take on new versions as “store of value” which is a >>>>>>>> kind of exchangeable access to ownership rights over everything. But >>>>>>>> again, if we either can’t or (I will accept the position of) don’t >>>>>>>> want to give up what it allows us to do, we again face the complexity >>>>>>>> and difficulty of inventing or evolving (in whatever combinations) >>>>>>>> regulatory strategies to try to limits its default instabilities. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, to say I agree with Russ’s motivation to push this point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Eric >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 6, 2021, at 8:15 AM, Russ Abbott <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Earlier, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ said: If we're stuck with capitalism, then I'm for >>>>>>>>> UBI. If we can get out from under capitalism, then I'm not. Nick >>>>>>>>> added: it is the "triumph" of capitalism to reduce all relationships >>>>>>>>> to money. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wonder if this is not assuming that there is an alternative to what >>>>>>>>> you are calling *capitalism*. As uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ points out, co-ops can work >>>>>>>>> on relatively small scales, but if we are going to live in groups of >>>>>>>>> larger than ~150 people, how are you imagining that we will arrange >>>>>>>>> interactions without something like money? Even on small scales, how >>>>>>>>> will a collective without money organize itself in anything other >>>>>>>>> than a very static structure? And on larger scales, what is the >>>>>>>>> organizing principle other than power? It's not clear to me how an >>>>>>>>> alternative that uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ is supposing possible will actually work. >>>>>>>>> uǝlƃ ↙↙↙, would you mind elaborating what you have in mind? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- Russ Abbott >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:17 PM jon zingale <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I think it is safe to say that "huge costs" are a sign of >>>>>>>>>> progress in >>>>>>>>>> the same sense that smoke is a sign of fire. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>>>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>>>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,RK4SHKG4UwSR2eVfEmLPEpQR-OMf7dd-BiY5K9UxSfhxcR1LmMt0ta1C_RYF2i8GsNwbem9M1V6uuuT9pS5WENqQxKV8dNrCjFOaTUwQ&typo=1> >>>>>>>>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,zWSbFgBSMywQBhEiPeYpZMK0-NSq7QU07S8ElQOja-b4WQIuI9z0sU3xgOp3Dnwql93s6TY4y2F5DfrGu6FcJGy42dAiGkjqPslUQXENzjFvsplH&typo=1> >>>>>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,o7oJnliH8UY66S_VIxX5a28UvlWetoD_I8KrLoutZukz2P5VR36VFwKkDfHj27Rj_NiaxL0j2ETtGNFu0dGtQCCvaNOXI9WLEp2lTNQlyMQ7YbhGZOxvSA,,&typo=1> >>>>>>>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>>>>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,CkfWaRYP8Ou59L3I5OyvQtJfIgRunN6VFBc5hlGXqE5iwH3aYVDJwCFKzHFPUjQ9ZnlTnbKC42bnhhV_wAqM9BrQUqjnHM6s4C6A0-o3whFaFo6n&typo=1> >>>>>>>>> un/subscribe >>>>>>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,HvHemFf2nk0pmKFfepLt4TjD9M0l85-biXwWC8q1bDKUBWfGef5Pp4Z2OaB4yeeC70js6t9PL7JWWobCvanB8lkdtjzzeU5B2MyE71I8yLva0JHOlkvd&typo=1 >>>>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC >>>>>>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,hJjRlBRGPCYAOdnxTw5QVB4Q0ocBaxbtaEss45GRX4-RlpSNQeL5uf0s3YhCU85yWo5p3xbeZ_FFkfQvinBq4gWd_Qk45IPfkEehh0t_&typo=1 >>>>>>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,3Bkjyl0WipDLgVpLfdQyVQ5x5wEzROFp7D_06nPly9Eyo1HteHQ2wTsnPj_NuBSolz8Kws2_3xtDUNCqiX3XMQAUCrKnxPFO-iBJPfyDhqg19SSOWAz586onxlE,&typo=1> >>>>>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,GFPneq_O_burrrvJ_YdLKU0rOc9LP7rvCq-41LfhZ9EXQz8v8fqYxGGz1KTod0UnLOVXfSP1xRrYTrPqJYIN5VBQAZL3Q4J28_MKH5xo8Io45Q,,&typo=1> >>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,ZnNxTP9wOGe46DdCIbHrA52baINqGOXsMNZxhEI10Srkmbl3Qh5wsCAdzjGgoO9yqVzu2ogfbNbcIKhMnlWiUjpuiCf3MvXd90AvUyhC5K38vWZY&typo=1> >>>>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> un/subscribe >>>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,Q2G82OKwFizNYT01kvdGo6qUzY12pbzhX3XghM6V7QCnrCM5QWOvoyUvI2uXSNpCEIRAFGCitcVgmV_XcV2MnlMRRDWK9T0UTgo3zcGn7w,,&typo=1 >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC >>>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,2QEltESSUHDfYg0n3x56nqqLswxiSH6BWPiZBwf3GXKdUANnjx2v24nWoF-5y2PO5TlLvlwQ-VtaVMSEni6QFpPZsHzon72QSREMgwq_DqPmbdagLRwW-3zllQ,,&typo=1 >>>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> >> >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
