Climate and health issues are written on these signs, and they remain very controversial. And the asphalt industry is getting a massive injection of money, ( https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/19/us/politics/infrastructure-plan-asphalt.html ) in part because we can't talk about changing (e.g. doubting) our behavior instead of doubling-down on the same infrastructure approach. Just try to talk to a hedonist about eating cultured meat. -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 9:38 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
[sigh] It's not hedonism. Beer is food. Potholes are infrastructure. If you think food and infrastructure are hedonism, then you've got too much money. As I said, food, health, shelter, climate, infrastructure, etc. these things are better foundations for conversation than whatever nonsense is written on your sign. On 3/3/22 08:55, Marcus Daniels wrote: > So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not talking > about it? I don't think I agree that everything can be boiled down to > hedonism. > There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that might > bypass other disagreements, but I don't think they are universal. And they > are only temporary. The true contempt is there, I think. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing > > Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't directly > engage Russian forces because of the risks associated with world war or > nuclear war. But I'm too ignorant to play that game at that level. My > sentiment is the US should just take out that convoy. "Bring it on," I guess. > > But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated networked > in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual conferences, eHealth, > electronic mental health, meditation apps, Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even > the righties have been networked by things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the > problem I'm highlighting *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such > networking has presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared > foundation between networks. > > The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right in the > US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, much like the > ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian citizenship, national > identity. Now that the internet has delivered us ways to perforate > abstractions like citizenship and nation, we need refined or new ways to > re-ground such networks in concrete things like food, shelter, health, > climate, and infrastructure. > > I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting righties at > the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll be able to ground > that interaction in things like beer and potholes. But the antifa standing > next to me won't be interested in talking to the bearded fat trucker about > beer and potholes. That sign you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is > that there's a fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer > Vienna lager. And Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant > compared to whether she had a good time visiting Paris. > > Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates. > > On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need >> tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated* >> in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist >> citizenhood and such. > >> >> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with >> the use of air power against Russia's supply lines. The west is not yet >> prepared to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment. Yeah, I >> also read those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in >> Russia trying to stop all this. Although I must admit when Trump was >> elected, I thought isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia >> and bring them to kneel! I remember thinking in the early '90s that the >> internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on >> that at all. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing >> >> OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" >> or "surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story >> also targets the problem: >> >> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russi >> a >> >> Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come >> Back Alive" charity <https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/> and the similar but >> anti-violence DAO set up by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way >> to in-group *actual* Russians while out-grouping Putinistas. E.g. >> >> https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled >> - >> our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-review >> s >> -12555968 >> >> In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out >> that there are many Ukrainian "creators" you can support directly. But we >> can also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject >> authoritarianism and act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. >> Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group in >> Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, >> against what they associate with "democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". >> We already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist lefties, blaming the >> status of Russian oligarchs on our introduction of neoliberalism after the >> collapse of the USSR. And we see it in the righties at the convoy protests, >> objectifying "liberals" and blaming them for positions they don't even >> really hold. >> >> These blunt instruments like sanctions are better than, say, bombing Moscow, >> but not by much. They're still too blunt. We won't win the socio-cultural or >> climate war that way. We need tactics that unify the >> geographically/politically *perforated* in-group as a network, not according >> to artificial nationalist citizenhood and such. >> >> The phrase "hearts and minds" helps, but isn't concrete enough. >> >> On 3/2/22 16:04, Steve Smith wrote: >>> Glen - >>> >>> I really appreciate your outlining this so well. >>> >>> It is always easier to imagine that *other people* can magically do >>> things that we know from our own experience that we cannot (or choose not >>> to) do. I also felt very impotent to do much of anything about Trump's >>> tenure except commit to myself (and encourage other fence sitters) to put >>> aside petty ideals and vote *effectively* against Trump in 2020. I voted >>> against Trump in 2016 but also Hillary by voting for Green Jill Stein >>> (before I discovered what an anti-vaxxer she is, even as an MD). I would >>> not have done so if I thought NM could fall to Trump, but if I'd lived in >>> another state where he was a shoo-in I might have also thrown my vote into >>> the "protest" category. Biden was easier for me than Hillary to accept, >>> even though I'd have chosen any one of about half the big slate in the >>> primaries. Bernie near the top. I may have talked a few of my more >>> curmudgeonly friends out of voting for a write-in simply because they >>> didn't get Bernie (or Mayor Pete or Tulsi or ...) . This was one election >>> where the total "popular vote" was important even if it didn't "count" as >>> such. There were a couple of candidates I'd have had a hard time not >>> passing over in "protest" but not if it was going to change the outcome. >>> >>> I do think, however, that gumming up Russia's gears, even if it hits the >>> populace hard is important. Making the clear, unequivocal statement that >>> Authoritarian Belligerence isn't welcome. I was shamed by the US under >>> Trump (and Bush for that matter) but did not begrudge my shamers... I did >>> (do) feel responsible for what my country does in my name, even if/though I >>> feel fairly disempowered in most specific ways. >>> >>> I doubt that the Russian citizenry is suffering any more than the Ukranian >>> citizenry, and insomuch as many of them are friends/family, there are >>> surely things *they* can do to help Ukrainians that is hard for the likes >>> of you or me to do. That doesn't mean I shouldn't try, though I do >>> moderate that by the myriad *other* things i should be doing both domestic >>> and foreign with my first-world privilege. >>> >>> If we can make it out the other side of this without a devastating (or even >>> trivial but earthshaking) nuclear exchange, I hope it leads to many >>> rethinking the size of the world's nuclear stockpile. I just saw a >>> headline that implied that Belarus was going to host some of Russia's >>> nukes. It was *the right thing* for Ukraine to give up the nukes on it's >>> soil at the end of cold war, but imagine how things would look (better or >>> worse) if Russia knew that Ukraine held a handful of nukes? Time to disarm >>> ourselves... >>> >>> -Steve >>> >>>> This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what it >>>> takes to ...": >>>> >>>> I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out >>>> https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo >>>> >>>> Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point that >>>> things like sanctions don't hurt the ultra wealthy. And in a country where >>>> the elections really are rigged (or you're young enough to have had no way >>>> to intervene before the gravity well became inescapable), what does it >>>> mean to "do what it takes to ..."? The last number I heard was Russian >>>> authorities arrested 2700 protesters. And given guys like Magomed Tushayev >>>> <https://www.jpost.com/international/article-699032>, the gods only know >>>> what else has happened. >>>> >>>> I mean, I felt pretty impotent with Trump as President. And I'm a >>>> relatively well-off white male in a relatively trustworthy democracy. What >>>> hope do those fed up with Putin and his government have? Only the hopes of >>>> coming years, if not decades of poverty, protesting, and bearing the risk >>>> of dying in jail or at the hands of a Tushayev? >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/2/22 14:59, Steve Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I like to hope that the net effect of Putin's nonsense on the heels of >>>>> Trump&Co's nonsense is that everyone else might actually get fed up with >>>>> Authoritarian capriciousness and do what it takes to shove it out the >>>>> airlock and get on with our lives w/o so much of the toxic >>>>> something-ulinity. >>>>> -- glen When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers. .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . 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