I have had maybe one beer a year for the last twenty years or so. So much for that grounding value.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 11:01 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing but my sign says "Beer is my Spirit Animal"... does that confound things a little? Beer has food value, food has no beer value (except maybe some fresh baked yeasty bread)! On 3/3/22 10:38 AM, glen wrote: > [sigh] It's not hedonism. Beer is food. Potholes are infrastructure. > If you think food and infrastructure are hedonism, then you've got too > much money. As I said, food, health, shelter, climate, infrastructure, > etc. these things are better foundations for conversation than > whatever nonsense is written on your sign. > > On 3/3/22 08:55, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not >> talking about it? I don't think I agree that everything can be >> boiled down to hedonism. >> There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that >> might bypass other disagreements, but I don't think they are >> universal. And they are only temporary. The true contempt is there, >> I think. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing >> >> Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't >> directly engage Russian forces because of the risks associated with >> world war or nuclear war. But I'm too ignorant to play that game at >> that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out that convoy. >> "Bring it on," I guess. >> >> But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated >> networked in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual >> conferences, eHealth, electronic mental health, meditation apps, >> Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the righties have been networked by >> things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem I'm highlighting >> *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking has >> presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation >> between networks. >> >> The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and >> right in the US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs >> right, much like the ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. >> Ukrainian citizenship, national identity. Now that the internet has >> delivered us ways to perforate abstractions like citizenship and >> nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such networks in >> concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and infrastructure. >> >> I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting >> righties at the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, >> I'll be able to ground that interaction in things like beer and >> potholes. But the antifa standing next to me won't be interested in >> talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and potholes. That sign >> you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's a >> fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna >> lager. And Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant >> compared to whether she had a good time visiting Paris. >> >> Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration >> indicates. >> >> On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need >>> tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated* >>> in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist >>> citizenhood and such. > >>> >>> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and >>> that's with the use of air power against Russia's supply lines. >>> The west is not yet prepared to do that, so it has opted for >>> collective punishment. Yeah, I also read those Meduza articles, >>> and clearly there are courageous people in Russia trying to stop all >>> this. Although I must admit when Trump was elected, I thought >>> isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia and bring >>> them to kneel! I remember thinking in the early '90s that the >>> internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't >>> delivered on that at all. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing >>> >>> OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's >>> somehow "flat" or "surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the >>> Meduza link, this story also targets the problem: >>> >>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russ >>> ia >>> >>> Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the >>> "Come Back Alive" charity <https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/> and >>> the similar but anti-violence DAO set up by the Pussy Riot member, >>> there needs to be a way to in-group *actual* Russians while >>> out-grouping Putinistas. E.g. >>> >>> https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoile >>> d- >>> our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-revie >>> ws >>> -12555968 >>> >>> In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they >>> point out that there are many Ukrainian "creators" you can support >>> directly. But we can also support in-group Russians directly, >>> encouraging those who reject authoritarianism and act within their >>> own tiny little sphere of influence. Without those rhizomic tendrils >>> of influence into and *with* our in-group in Russia, ham-handed >>> things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, against what >>> they associate with "democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". We >>> already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist lefties, blaming >>> the status of Russian oligarchs on our introduction of neoliberalism >>> after the collapse of the USSR. And we see it in the righties at the >>> convoy protests, objectifying "liberals" and blaming them for >>> positions they don't even really hold. >>> >>> These blunt instruments like sanctions are better than, say, bombing >>> Moscow, but not by much. They're still too blunt. We won't win the >>> socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need tactics that unify >>> the geographically/politically *perforated* in-group as a network, >>> not according to artificial nationalist citizenhood and such. >>> >>> The phrase "hearts and minds" helps, but isn't concrete enough. >>> >>> On 3/2/22 16:04, Steve Smith wrote: >>>> Glen - >>>> >>>> I really appreciate your outlining this so well. >>>> >>>> It is always easier to imagine that *other people* can magically do >>>> things that we know from our own experience that we cannot (or >>>> choose not to) do. I also felt very impotent to do much of >>>> anything about Trump's tenure except commit to myself (and >>>> encourage other fence sitters) to put aside petty ideals and vote >>>> *effectively* against Trump in 2020. I voted against Trump in 2016 >>>> but also Hillary by voting for Green Jill Stein (before I >>>> discovered what an anti-vaxxer she is, even as an MD). I would not >>>> have done so if I thought NM could fall to Trump, but if I'd lived >>>> in another state where he was a shoo-in I might have also thrown my >>>> vote into the "protest" category. Biden was easier for me than >>>> Hillary to accept, even though I'd have chosen any one of about >>>> half the big slate in the primaries. Bernie near the top. I may >>>> have talked a few of my more curmudgeonly friends out of voting for >>>> a write-in simply because they didn't get Bernie (or Mayor Pete or >>>> Tulsi or ...) . This was one election where the total "popular >>>> vote" was important even if it didn't "count" as such. There were >>>> a couple of candidates I'd have had a hard time not passing over in >>>> "protest" but not if it was going to change the outcome. >>>> >>>> I do think, however, that gumming up Russia's gears, even if it >>>> hits the populace hard is important. Making the clear, >>>> unequivocal statement that Authoritarian Belligerence isn't >>>> welcome. I was shamed by the US under Trump (and Bush for that >>>> matter) but did not begrudge my shamers... I did (do) feel >>>> responsible for what my country does in my name, even if/though I >>>> feel fairly disempowered in most specific ways. >>>> >>>> I doubt that the Russian citizenry is suffering any more than the >>>> Ukranian citizenry, and insomuch as many of them are >>>> friends/family, there are surely things *they* can do to help >>>> Ukrainians that is hard for the likes of you or me to do. That >>>> doesn't mean I shouldn't try, though I do moderate that by the >>>> myriad *other* things i should be doing both domestic and foreign >>>> with my first-world privilege. >>>> >>>> If we can make it out the other side of this without a devastating >>>> (or even trivial but earthshaking) nuclear exchange, I hope it >>>> leads to many rethinking the size of the world's nuclear stockpile. >>>> I just saw a headline that implied that Belarus was going to host >>>> some of Russia's nukes. It was *the right thing* for Ukraine to >>>> give up the nukes on it's soil at the end of cold war, but imagine >>>> how things would look (better or worse) if Russia knew that Ukraine >>>> held a handful of nukes? Time to disarm ourselves... >>>> >>>> -Steve >>>> >>>>> This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what >>>>> it takes to ...": >>>>> >>>>> I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out >>>>> https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo >>>>> >>>>> Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point >>>>> that things like sanctions don't hurt the ultra wealthy. And in a >>>>> country where the elections really are rigged (or you're young >>>>> enough to have had no way to intervene before the gravity well >>>>> became inescapable), what does it mean to "do what it takes to >>>>> ..."? The last number I heard was Russian authorities arrested >>>>> 2700 protesters. And given guys like Magomed Tushayev >>>>> <https://www.jpost.com/international/article-699032>, the gods >>>>> only know what else has happened. >>>>> >>>>> I mean, I felt pretty impotent with Trump as President. And I'm a >>>>> relatively well-off white male in a relatively trustworthy >>>>> democracy. What hope do those fed up with Putin and his government >>>>> have? Only the hopes of coming years, if not decades of poverty, >>>>> protesting, and bearing the risk of dying in jail or at the hands >>>>> of a Tushayev? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3/2/22 14:59, Steve Smith wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I like to hope that the net effect of Putin's nonsense on the >>>>>> heels of Trump&Co's nonsense is that everyone else might actually >>>>>> get fed up with Authoritarian capriciousness and do what it takes >>>>>> to shove it out the airlock and get on with our lives w/o so much >>>>>> of the toxic something-ulinity. >>>>>> > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . 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