How many subsequent experiences are needed? 2? A google? And is reality defeasible? Eg if some experience is 'real' to me, then I get some brain damage and no longer get repeats, is the now unexperienced experience real?
On May 31, 2022 6:05:40 PM PDT, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> wrote: >Dave, I think I disagree. Not all experiences have a character of being real. >Only those that are confirm or subsequent experiences. > >Sent from my Dumb Phone > >On May 31, 2022, at 8:27 PM, Prof David West <[email protected]> wrote: > > >At the risk of becoming a poster boy for glen's comments about cult >maintenance and othering; > >It is the body and brain that are Illusion, the self Real. > >The mirage, the rainbow illustrate the emergence of Illusion. Raindrops and >neurons are posited as ex post facto "explanations" and "causes" for very >real, 'perceptions,' 'apprehensions,' 'experiences' of rainbows and mirages. > >davew > >On Tue, May 31, 2022, at 12:59 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: >> Interesting episode. Yes, Garfield apparently uses it to advertise his book. >> I like the mirage example he uses (at 11:00) to illustrate an illusion which >> is real as an experience and as a dynamic refraction process but unreal as a >> physical substance. >> https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691220284/losing-ourselves >> >> Daniel Dennett recently posted on Twitter a link to an article which >> contains the same idea, but for a rainbow instead of a mirage: perceiving a >> rainbow is a real experience of a colored arc, but also an illusion because >> there is of course no real physical arc at the place where we see it. >> https://www.keithfrankish.com/2022/05/like-a-rainbow/ >> >> Maybe the illusion of the self works indeed in the same way? As whole >> persons who have bodies and brains we are real, just as raindrops in the sky >> are real. But when the billions of neurons start to sparkle in the light of >> conscious thoughts, the experience of a self emerges for a short time like a >> rainbow which emerges shortly from a million raindrops that bend the light >> towards the observer. >> >> I believe Jay Garfield is right when he says that we are able to construct >> ourselves as embedded beings. It is as if we are 6, 7 or 8 dimensional >> beings in a 4 dimensional spacetime where the additional dimensions are >> embedded in the others. This additional dimensions come through language and >> enable to specify a personality. If we consider a person from a 3rd person >> point of view, then the personality of a person certainly determines the >> behavior. This means everyone has a self in form of a character or >> personality. Even if it is illusionary or an unreachable ideal to be a >> certain type of person, such a type can be approximated. Our personalities >> can be considered as embedded abstract person types that we acquire and >> approximate in the course of time. In this sense we can say we have a self >> that guides our actions. And the abstract type is independent from us, since >> it could also be implemented in a sophisticated robot, android or AI. >> >> -J. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: [email protected] >> Date: 5/31/22 11:04 (GMT+01:00) >> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[email protected]> >> Cc: 'Mike Bybee' <[email protected]>, [email protected], >> 'Grant Franks' <[email protected]> >> Subject: [FRIAM] Peirce, Buddhism, Monism, Behaviorism, oh my! >> >> https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/282-do-you-really-have-a-self/id733163012?i=1000563340865 >> >> >> >> Jay Garfield promotes his book Losing the Self on the Sam Harris Podcast. I >> can see no evidence that Garfield ever read a word of Peirce, but It’s >> fascinating how closely he tracks Peirce’s monism. Fascinating, also, to >> see how Harris never quite gets it, repeatedly trying to drag the >> outside/inside distinction back into the conversation, while slathering >> praise on Garfield for eliminating it. Reminds me of James’s failure to >> ever quite “get” Peirce. But then it was James who died a neutral monist. >> Oh well. >> >> >> >> Reminded me of all the times that Dave West has accused me of being a closet >> Buddhist. >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson >> >> [email protected] >> >> -- glen ⛧ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
