The first time I went to Chile was right after Pinochet. I was invited by the Chilean CS Professors to speak at their annual meeting which was to be in Punta Arenas. Hard to resist a free trip to Patagonia. But the people at the conference had a miixed reaction to having a US person there. It surprised me at first. Having traveled a lot during Vietnam, most people assumed US young people were anti war. But as a senior person in Chile, many people were not willing to make a similar assumption about Pinochet.
The opposite was true in Venezuela. I was returning there for a conference and as it turned out I was on the first plane after all flights were grounded after 9/11. Then I was the only US person who “dared” to attend the conference and was treated like some sort of hero by the Venezuelans. There’s a short essay my editor had me write on my home page describing our adventures living in Venezuela and Ecuador. Ed Ed ____________ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon Santa Fe, NM 87501 505-984-0136 (home) [email protected] 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel > On Jan 13, 2023, at 2:48 PM, Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ed - > > Thanks for weighing in from your current SA location. While I specifically > called out the distribution of places that our members *live*, I failed to > think (much) about how widely traveled (currently and over a career) many of > our members are. I did not know you had so much experience with South > America. > > When my sister and young family moved to Santiago Chile (just as Pinochet was > finally deposed) I became aware of the *deep history* of Santiago in > particular the early Spanish colonization (founded well before Santa Fe, for > example)... and the strong role in European colonization around the world, > with Santiago (founded mid 1500s) as a powerful precursor to what we in the > US think of as San Francisco (founded late 1700s) being. > > Unfortunately, their grasp of *contemporary* politics was colored by the fact > that her husband worked for a major Copper Mining company and his peers in > Chile were all pretty much apologists for Pinochet since they had "grown up" > under his version of neoliberalism influenced by the "Chicago Boys" and > (covertly?) backed by the US (e.g. operation Condor). Before all of this, > most of what I knew about the politics of South America came from an > outdated/lame public-high-school world history class taught by a football > coach, and the reactive populist left-wing movement who was (trying to) > calling out the CIA, etc. which I mostly dismissed as > kneejerk-liberal-hysteria. History strongly suggests otherwise (to the > hysteria). > > I do agree that references to "Golden Ages" such as the paper I linked are > part of a larger *post-colonial* golden-age period throughout the part of the > world that (at that time) was recently freed from *overt political > euro-american dominance* but was on the rise of multinational corporations > (such as the one my brother-in-law worked for). > > I appreciated your categorization of the southern Big-three, the Andean and > the Central American. The main things they would seem to have in common was > the initial Spanish Colonization and the more modern manipulation by the USA, > it's allies and enemies (USSR) for political and corporate gain. > > The main thing I'm interested in *myself* is the question of "what is next" > for the world-at-large, but in particular the huge population tail > represented by the "developing world"... What challenges (and more to the > point, opportunities) do these huge regions of the world represent (beyond > the semi-infinite source of natural resources they have been to the US, > Europe, and China)? > > - Steve > > On 1/13/23 4:01 PM, Ed Angel wrote: >> Gary, you may remember that I lived in Quito not far from where I think you >> are while on sabbatical; half in Ecuador and half in Venezuela. I’ve also >> spent time in most South American and half of Central American countries. >> This email chain reached me in Argentina. >> >> It strikes me as silly to refer to a "Latin American" Golden Age or any >> other term. >> >> The southern big three (Argentina, Brazil, Chile) are completely different >> historically and culturally from the Andean countries (Ecuador, Peru, >> Columbia, Venezuela) and both are very differemt from most of Central >> America (Guatemala, Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua). >> >> What I suspect the reference is about is the period before and after WW 2 >> when the southern three were doing quite well. The Europeans had eliminated >> almost all the native population and all had large numbers of European >> immigrants about the same as the U.S. Because they were not participants in >> WW2 they not only escaped the destruction in Europe but were able to profit >> from exports such the beef from Argentina and various natural resources. >> >> Ed >> ____________ >> >> Ed Angel >> >> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS >> Lab) >> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico >> >> 1017 Sierra Pinon >> Santa Fe, NM 87501 >> 505-984-0136 (home) [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel >> <http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:09 AM, Gary Schiltz <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> Steve, thanks for the perspective. It's interesting that the authors >>> of the paper dub the period of 1950-1975 as the "Golden Age" and then >>> go on to point out how badly Latin America has failed to exploit it. I >>> haven't read the paper yet (only your quote from it), but it seems >>> they are defining a golden age globally, not for Latin America. I >>> guess that would be the post-WWII era. >>> >>> I'll try to break out of these darned bubbles :-) >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:33 PM Steve Smith <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Gary - >>>> >>>> Thanks for the on-the-ground response from the "middle of the world". I >>>> realize(d) you (like all of us) live in a bubble and I appreciate your >>>> acknowledging the two impinging bubbles you recognize yourself to be >>>> circumscribed by: 1) retired folk who avoid deep political thought; 2) >>>> locals without the education or experience to see much beyond the local >>>> community. >>>> >>>> In some ways this feels like a template for many of our own bubbles... >>>> sort of a 1) personal/professional/socioeconomic bubble; 2) geolocal >>>> bubble . There are probably more and they may or may not overlap >>>> significantly. I use FriAM to try to force some of my own bubbles to >>>> impinge on one another, or perhaps to explore the interstices between the >>>> otherwise natural impingements... >>>> >>>> I'm not a regular (only dropped in once or twice) vFriam participant, and >>>> I don't know about Merle, I think she may make a better effort than I and >>>> could probably be drawn into making an appearance for a topic *like* this >>>> if you were interested. I'll ping her offline as well to see if she >>>> might be interested/available to vFriAM up on this (or some vaguely >>>> related) topic next week? >>>> >>>> - Steve >>>> >>>> Regarding "the Golden Age of Latin America", I found this (working) paper >>>> which moderately reflects what I think of as "the Golden Age". I think >>>> they acknowledge (and maybe even explain) what you have >>>> experienced/observed/believe about "keeping Latin America dirt poor": >>>> >>>> On the Latin American Growth Paradox: A Hindsight into the Golden Age >>>> Giorgia Barboni∗and Tania Treibich† November 12, 2010 >>>> https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/89360/1/64049434X.pdf >>>> <https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/89360/1/64049434X.pdf> >>>> >>>> >>>> In 1950, Latin American countries’ capabilities were promising: however, >>>> some other countries starting at the same level, or even below, made a >>>> better use of their initial endowments. At the time, countries like >>>> Argentina and Venezuela had a higher GDP per capita than other European >>>> countries belonging to the developed world today (Italy, Spain...) and >>>> many East Asian countries that have managed to catch up with the Western >>>> World in the last decades (see Figure 1 below). Indeed, the data on GDP >>>> per capita over the last 60 years reveals that since 1950, Latin American >>>> countries have diverged from the Western World. With a GDP growth rate >>>> between 4 and 5 percent, they have fallen behind Europe which economy has >>>> reached a 20,000 dollars per capita level today. The Latin American >>>> countries grew slowly until 1980 and, from then, their GDP per capita >>>> growth has been stationary. The only exception would be Chile which after >>>> a period of slow growth started an expansion period in 1980s, converging >>>> to the highest levels. Asian countries in comparison followed a >>>> convergence path, starting way lower and reaching the European levels of >>>> GDP per capita after fifty years of catching up. Castaldi et al. >>>> (2008(16)) point out that this divergence can also be measured by the >>>> widening productivity gap between Latin America and the international >>>> frontier in the last decades. Other indicators of education and science >>>> may also support the hypothesis that back then, Latin American countries >>>> had a big potential for convergence. Argentina, for example, was thought >>>> to be so promising that it could join the innovators’ club (Castaldi et >>>> al., 2008(16)). Then, what happened during the Golden Age (1950-1975) that >>>> prevented South American countries to exploit this potential for growth? >>>> >>>> Which is naturally just one perspective, but provides the basic idea of >>>> what said "Golden Age" was/is/might-be. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/13/23 9:33 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote: >>>> >>>> Despite living here in the middle of the world, I'm afraid I don't >>>> give these ideas enogh serious thought these days. I interact mostly >>>> with people who are retired and avoid deep political thought, and with >>>> locals who don't have the education or experience to see much beyond >>>> the local community. I REALLY MUST make myself make it a priority to >>>> start attending the VFriam meetings on Thursday. It might be valuable. >>>> I wonder, does Merle ever tune in? She seems the most socially >>>> concerned (maybe even hopeful?) person on the list. >>>> >>>> By the way, I wasn't aware that there ever was a "Golden Age of Latin >>>> America". Care to elaborate? My view (shaped perhaps too much by >>>> reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" in the early 2000s) is >>>> that Latin America has always been dirt poor, just like the more >>>> developed world wants it to be. First under the thumb of the USA and >>>> USSR/Russia, and now China. No wonder dictators thrive here. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 12, 2023 at 1:31 PM Steve Smith <[email protected]> >>>> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> GaryS, et al - >>>> >>>> I was recently trying to make a little more sense of the larger >>>> sociopolitical situation across central/south America and realized that >>>> your location in Ecuador might provide some useful parallax. >>>> >>>> https://www.as-coa.org/articles/2023-elections-latin-america-preview >>>> <https://www.as-coa.org/articles/2023-elections-latin-america-preview> >>>> >>>> I was (not?) surprised to read that there was a renewed interest in >>>> "regional integration". This article references Lula and Obrador and >>>> several other Latin American leaders who might be attempting a broader >>>> ideological (and economic) alignment/cooperation across the region. >>>> >>>> https://www.bloomberglinea.com/english/will-lula-achieve-regional-integration-in-latin-america/ >>>> >>>> <https://www.bloomberglinea.com/english/will-lula-achieve-regional-integration-in-latin-america/> >>>> >>>> With the unrest of the summer triggered? by energy/fossil-fuel prices it >>>> seems like Ecuador has become (temporarily, modestly) unbalanced which >>>> seems like an opportunity for change, whether for better or worse. I see >>>> in the first article (Elections Preview) that Lasso has a very low >>>> approval rating and the upcoming (February) elections might include/yield >>>> a recall for him? >>>> >>>> >>>> I lived on the border of AZ/MX as a teen in the early 70s and the recent >>>> memory/residue of the Golden Age of Latin America was still evident. The >>>> Mexican border town (Agua Prieta) still had moderately grand facilities >>>> and institutions (e.g. A huge library with elaborate fountains on the >>>> grounds, etc) even though they were not able to support them in that >>>> grandeur... So I think I still have an ideation that Latin America has >>>> many of the resources or (hidden) momentum to achieve a resurgence of some >>>> sort. >>>> >>>> These reflections are partly triggered by this interview/article produced >>>> by WBUR/Boston and distributed via NPR: >>>> >>>> https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/01/11/8-billion-earth-population-rise-human >>>> >>>> <https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/01/11/8-billion-earth-population-rise-human> >>>> >>>> Which reminded me that while we *do* have a total-population problem with >>>> our 8B and rising numbers (and 90+ % of land animal by mass being human or >>>> human domesticates), the *distribution* of people, and more to the point >>>> the demographic fecundity/fertility distribution is very uneven and in >>>> fact seems to be inversely proportional to various features of human >>>> civilization ranging from GDP to education to technological development. >>>> Some (like DJT) turn this into a judgement and a reason for >>>> resentment/fear (e.g. S*hole country labels) but others have a more >>>> progressive view. An excerpt from the WBUR interview/article: >>>> >>>> Jennifer Sciubba: "We're moving toward this aging and shrinking world, and >>>> we are worried because we can't sustain that same huge level of economic >>>> growth in the past. And we do need to think about what that might look >>>> like, so we can look relook at concepts like retirement. We can look at >>>> concepts like what is work life. We also, though, have to start thinking >>>> about family and marriage. And, you know, we're talking about a >>>> paradigmatic shift. >>>> >>>> "That means we have to look at the world through a completely different >>>> lens than we've looked at the world in the past. But all of our theories >>>> about the good life, our economic theories, our political theories, those >>>> were all developed under conditions of population growth and economic >>>> growth, as William said. So it's really hard to get a paradigmatic shift >>>> and say, what if we try to look at the world in a different way? Can we >>>> look at an aging and shrinking society as a good thing? Can we look at >>>> growing older individually as a good thing? We've not been good at that. >>>> And so we're kind of taking that negativity and applying it at the >>>> societal level." >>>> >>>> This passage specifically references aging (individual and population) but >>>> there are other references to economic/technological disparities. >>>> >>>> I also defer here to others who have an international POV (e.g. Pieter in >>>> South Africa, Sarbajit in India, Jochen in Germany, and I believe we have >>>> someone from Cuba, I think we lost (off the list) Mohammed from Egypt a >>>> few years ago, etc.) as well. We are not a very demographicly >>>> representative group here but still offer a somewhat broad samplying by >>>> some measures. >>>> >>>> I realize this is yet another of my rambly maunderings but I'd be curious >>>> to hear what others are observing/thinking about these issues in this >>>> current time of global flux. >>>> >>>> - Steve >>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >> >> >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> <http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
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