Naive, but honest question: Can a computer program be "complex?" Jochen seems to assert so, *"Every developer knows that each piece of code which is added makes the system more complex."* I would say no, it only makes it more complicated.
My answer is partially based on the fact that code must execute on a deterministic machine and the code itself (at least its compiled self) is nothing more than a virtual machine, still a deterministic system. Even the source code is a context free grammar, so none of the things that make natural language complex (context sensitivity, metaphor, interpolation) prevail. Otherwise the code would not work? A secondary motivation for asking, I am working on an extended monograph/book on how to intentionally 'evolve' complex systems like a business and the software that supports it,or ULS ( https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/ ), i.e., systems that *_cannot_* be "engineered." davew On Wed, Jun 12, 2024, at 5:30 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > Emergence as a kind of “software in the natural world"? If we mean code by > it, then yes, certainly. Every developer knows that each piece of code which > is added makes the system more complex. Therefore we usually try to keep it > simple. For biological systems it is the DNA code. For cultural systems it is > the hidden code people do not want to talk about because everything related > to it is sacred (at least for the group which it defines). The knights > templar had their own code, the order of the cistercians, the Franciscans and > the other religious orders and organizations as well. > > > Cults and sects have their code ( which can be simple political slogans such > as "Make Your Country Great Again", "Build the wall" and "Lock them up" or > simply "Do not criticize the supreme leader"). Criminal organizations have > their code. Ideologies and political parties have their code. Behind every > complex organism or organization there seems to be some form of code or DNA > that generates and maintains it. > > > Whenever something is happening in nature it is either supper or pairing > time. Obviously because the underlying "selfish" code has created bodies > which have the directive to maintain and replicate themselves. If we look at > cultural systems, for instance at political conventions or at religious > congregations, then we notice that every time something is really happening > at a larger scale is that the code becomes active. People come together to > read or express laws, rules, guidelines and policies. > > > > So I would say yes, if there is a secret then it is the code. Definitely. Is > there a new math for it? IMO it is quite hard to formulate the expression of > such a code in general mathematically. For example how can you describe > mathematically if the speech of a president or party leader or priest has > bigger consequences or not? It is at least as complicated as calculating a > path integral in Quantum Field Theory. > > > > What might be possible is to calculate a probability how a group behavior > changes depending how frequent a rule is read, remembered and expressed. > > > > -J. > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Roger Critchlow <[email protected]> > Date: 6/12/24 8:05 PM (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> > Subject: [FRIAM] new math of complexity > > Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's article in Quanta? > > https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/ > > I really liked his summary of the current non-explanations for emergence, but > I haven't had time to read further. > > -- rec -- > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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