Up to some strong interpretations of QM "physics is deterministic but
not pre-stateable" is the ground I usually stand on. I don't need to
invoke non-determinism to believe in open-ended complexity...
combinatoric (roughly factorial) arithmetic overwhhelms counting,
additive, multiplicative, even exponential arithmetic?
I am very sympathetic with your (daveW) conceit that evolution can do
things which engineering generally has not, though I think it is the
simple amount of (combinatoric) complexity of the "search" algorithm?
I would claim that our technosphere is significantly "evolved" but on
top of our "engineering" efforts, though some might argue that with the
exception of a few exceptionally significant "engineers" like Archimedes
and Da Vinci, most of our technological development before the age of
enlightenment or the industrial revolution, actually was an evolutionary
process (cut and try).
It might be a coincidence but I just happened to dial up the latest Lex
Fridman interview with Sara Walker (
https://search.asu.edu/profile/1731899 ) who some may know through her
role as associate director of the ASU-SFI Center for Biosocial Complex
Systems.
She starts out with simple Materialist/Vitalist contrasts but alludes
(nearly) to Marcus latest snark: /"//Simulate from first principles:
//https://www.vasp.at///"/
/
/
On 6/13/24 7:11 AM, Prof David West wrote:
Naive, but honest question:
Can a computer program be "complex?" Jochen seems to assert so,
/"Every developer knows that each piece of code which is added makes
the system more complex."/ I would say no, it only makes it more
complicated.
My answer is partially based on the fact that code must execute on a
deterministic machine and the code itself (at least its compiled self)
is nothing more than a virtual machine, still a deterministic system.
Even the source code is a context free grammar, so none of the things
that make natural language complex (context sensitivity, metaphor,
interpolation) prevail. Otherwise the code would not work?
A secondary motivation for asking, I am working on an extended
monograph/book on how to intentionally 'evolve' complex systems like a
business and the software that supports it,or ULS (
https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/
), i.e., systems that *_cannot_* be "engineered."
davew
On Wed, Jun 12, 2024, at 5:30 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
Emergence as a kind of “software in the natural world"? If we mean
code by it, then yes, certainly. Every developer knows that each
piece of code which is added makes the system more complex. Therefore
we usually try to keep it simple. For biological systems it is the
DNA code. For cultural systems it is the hidden code people do not
want to talk about because everything related to it is sacred (at
least for the group which it defines). The knights templar had their
own code, the order of the cistercians, the Franciscans and the other
religious orders and organizations as well.
Cults and sects have their code ( which can be simple political
slogans such as "Make Your Country Great Again", "Build the wall" and
"Lock them up" or simply "Do not criticize the supreme leader").
Criminal organizations have their code. Ideologies and political
parties have their code. Behind every complex organism or
organization there seems to be some form of code or DNA that
generates and maintains it.
Whenever something is happening in nature it is either supper or
pairing time. Obviously because the underlying "selfish" code has
created bodies which have the directive to maintain and replicate
themselves. If we look at cultural systems, for instance at political
conventions or at religious congregations, then we notice that every
time something is really happening at a larger scale is that the code
becomes active. People come together to read or express laws, rules,
guidelines and policies.
So I would say yes, if there is a secret then it is the code.
Definitely. Is there a new math for it? IMO it is quite hard to
formulate the expression of such a code in general mathematically.
For example how can you describe mathematically if the speech of a
president or party leader or priest has bigger consequences or not?
It is at least as complicated as calculating a path integral in
Quantum Field Theory.
What might be possible is to calculate a probability how a group
behavior changes depending how frequent a rule is read, remembered
and expressed.
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: Roger Critchlow <[email protected]>
Date: 6/12/24 8:05 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<[email protected]>
Subject: [FRIAM] new math of complexity
Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's article in Quanta?
https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/
I really liked his summary of the current non-explanations for
emergence, but I haven't had time to read further.
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