agreed.
On Thu, Nov 7, 2024, at 1:20 PM, glen wrote: > OK. That's a great point. I was a voracious book reader as a kid, ~2 > books per day maybe, not including school work. And as an older kid > (peri-college) that incorporated lots of non-fiction and long essays in > publications like https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/toc/et/current. > > So your hypothesis becomes something like: "Long-form reading during > one's formative years facilitates world-building and -integration into > a (dynamic) foundation into which short-form media snippets can be > woven. Without that long-form reading during the formative years, > either the built world/foundation is small or fractured or otherwise > susceptible to capture or bias." And, in this particular case, capture > or bias to authoritarianism. > > How'd I do? > > On 11/7/24 11:03, Prof David West wrote: >> Sorry I did not explicitly mention parallelism and continuous >> (re)integration. I am always reading between 2 and 4 books in >> parallel—often, in the case of non-fiction, books extolling opposing >> viewpoints. Also a mixture of media, print, video, F-F-t-F conversations, >> and Web. >> >> It is the tapestry, not any individual thread or local motif, that is >> valuable to me. >> >> When I do synthesize/coalesce into a stable opinion on some topic, e.g., my >> antipathy to AI and LLMs, it has a deeply entangled root ball. AI: Minsky, >> Simon, Winograd, McCarthy, Rumelhart, Dreyfus, Gabriel >> (https://dreamsongs.com/Essays.html#AIWinter), and my own work (first two >> professional publications were in AI Magazine and my Ph.D. thesis focused on >> human cognition). >> >> glen: I doubt, please correct me, that had you not laid a foundation with >> your history of reading books/print media, you would be anywhere near as >> successful integrating your 'non-reading'. >> >> davew >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 7, 2024, at 11:22 AM, glen wrote: >>> I actually land almost exactly opposite to Dave. Descent into >>> authoritarianism is *caused* by reading and the lack of reading >>> facilitates egalitarianism. That's an overstatement, of course. But >>> Dave did it first. 8^D >>> >>> As Marcus (unintentionally?) implies, inductive learning relies >>> fundamentally on this sequential beatdown ... a firehose (or maddening >>> drip, drip, drip) of entrainment. What saves us from the entrainment is >>> parallelism (?) ... parallelity (?) ... interruptibility (?). When/if I >>> do read books, I read them in parallel. It used to be a steady stream >>> of 1 fiction and 1 non-fiction, where fiction was reserved for evening >>> when my mind goes numb and it doesn't matter that much if I habitually >>> read entire pages without comprehending them. Non-fiction in taxis, on >>> planes, at lunch, focused efforts, etc. And I simply can't >>> overemphasize the fecundity of doing that. In every case, the 2 books >>> fed on each other, cross-pollinated. >>> >>> The same is now true with my not-reading reading. I'll stop in the >>> middle of an essay on anarchism to dig back through a podcast on a Q >>> anon meme. Or stop in a neuroscience article and go look up some >>> Jungian archetype I thought I smelled from some sci-fi show. Etc. >>> >>> This world-integrating task switching inoculates (I claim) against both >>> lefty and righty authoritarianism. Whereas the more time you spend >>> consuming 1 narrative (e.g. all the Curtis Yarvin material or >>> whatever), you begin to think in terms of that 1 narrative. True, for >>> voracious readers who can consume Ulysses in an evening, there's little >>> risk of entrainment. But for us rabble with low cognitive power, >>> task-switching is better than the sequential beatdown. >>> >>> On 11/7/24 09:00, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> Gemini, Copilot, and Chatgpt all give responses like this: >>>> >>>> < It’s hard to pinpoint an exact number, but the data likely encompasses >>>> the equivalent of hundreds of thousands to millions of books' worth of >>>> text. This figure includes a mixture of genres, lengths, and types of >>>> writing, from novels and technical manuals to academic articles and >>>> historical documents. The aim was to capture a broad and varied >>>> perspective, rather than comprehensive coverage of any single source type >>>> or genre. > >>>> >>>> *From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Prof David West >>>> <profw...@fastmail.fm> >>>> *Date: *Thursday, November 7, 2024 at 7:55 AM >>>> *To: *friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com> >>>> *Subject: *[FRIAM] Reading >>>> >>>> several people made comments about people not reading much and glen >>>> mentioned he has read maybe 2 books this year. This triggered me, a >>>> lifelong addicted bibliophile. >>>> >>>> I started reading (comic books with/Donald Duck in Mathemagic Land/ and >>>> heroes like Lex Luthor) a couple of hears before starting school. I maxed >>>> out my Weekly Reader Book Club order every week during grade school. >>>> Weekly trips to neighborhood book store for 20-25 cent paperbacks (mostly >>>> science fiction, but a hell of a lot of non-fiction popular science books >>>> as well). A simple mention in a TV show, /Outer Limit/s, prompted a >>>> library trip to check out and read Kant's /Critique of Pure Reason/, My >>>> freshman year at Macalester required buying and reading over forty >>>> books—mostly monographs, not textbooks. I have read just over 10,000 books >>>> in my lifetime (a significant percentage being fiction—mysteries and >>>> science fiction). Until the past decade, I had subscribed to at least two >>>> local papers and one national paper. Before they descended to junk, read >>>> Newsweek and Time every week and subscribed to at least six-seven >>>> different periodicals (a lot of them computer journals). When I >>>> encountered a mention of Graeber, I bought and read one, then all, of his >>>> books (/Dawn of Everything /is, IMO, a really important book with insights >>>> that could inform much of the socio-political discussion on this list). >>>> Whenever anyone on this list mentions a book, I am on Amazon with seconds >>>> ordering it. When I attended FRIAM at St. John's, I visited the >>>> bookstore's new books table and always left with 3-8 books; every week. >>>> >>>> When speaking at professional conferences I always ask how many people >>>> have read 1-2 computer books this year. and most of the audience raises >>>> their hand. How many have read one book other than a computer book this >>>> year—less than half the audience. How many a fiction book—four or five >>>> people. >>>> >>>> Alan Kay once said, /"If you do not read for pleasure, you cannot read for >>>> purpose."/ An exaggeration perhaps, but a valid observation. >>>> >>>> My last three or four years teaching, I was not allowed to mandate any >>>> books for any class. I could recommend one text book. >>>> >>>> The year i spent teaching high school in Las Vegas, NV; not one student, >>>> outside of 'honors/AP' courses had read even one book in their entire >>>> 4-year high school career. >>>> >>>> Books are not the only medium of course, but I am deeply suspicious of the >>>> value of much of what is consumed from on-line and mass media sources. >>>> >>>> I would attribute any descent into authoritarianism, any demise of social >>>> order, and any succumbing to existential threats on humanity to nothing >>>> more than the massive ignorance of the vast majority of people who do not >>>> read. >>>> >>>> davew >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2024, at 8:29 AM, glen wrote: >>>> >>>>> I would guess the majority of those who voted for Harris also don't >>>> >>>>> read. Or, maybe it's better to say they don't read the same way we used >>>> >>>>> to read: https://www.the-hinternet.com/p/the-future-of-reading >>>>> <https://www.the-hinternet.com/p/the-future-of-reading> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I'll admit that I rarely read books anymore. I think I've read 2 this >>>> >>>>> year. The overwhelming majority of my reading is journal, magazine, and >>>> >>>>> news articles. And I spend a LOT of time listening to podcasts and >>>> >>>>> video essays. Granted, my only social media is Mastodon. Though I do >>>> >>>>> try to post to Instagram sporadically. I just have no idea why serious >>>> >>>>> people still use eX-Twitter. I mean, WTF? >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> All this stuff plays an important role in "how democracies die". And my >>>> >>>>> guess is we'll learn less from the deep thinking book writers or >>>> >>>>> essayists and more from attempts at network analysis across media like >>>> >>>>> TikTok, Telegram, Signal, Discord, & SimpleX. There was this (good) >>>> >>>>> article on Graeber in the Guardian: >>>> >>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/nov/07/david-graeber-optimistic-anarchist-rebecca-solnit >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/nov/07/david-graeber-optimistic-anarchist-rebecca-solnit>. >>>> >>>>> And despite it tweaking my old philia, it just reads so empty to me >>>> >>>>> now. A stroll through .5TB of leaked chat logs is much more exciting >>>> >>>>> these days >>>> >>>>> (https://ddosecrets.com/article/paramilitary-election-interference >>>>> <https://ddosecrets.com/article/paramilitary-election-interference>). >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> On 11/7/24 02:16, Sarbajit Roy wrote: >>>> >>>>>> "> ..,The people who voted for him probably do not read Paxton, Arendt >>>>>> or Levitsky and Ziblat ..." >>>> >>>>>> The people who voted for him don't read... >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> We have a similar problem in India, the great semi-literate masses have >>>>>> been handed cheap smartp[hiones with cheap data plans so they are >>>>>> connected 24x7 to the Matrix. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 2:04 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net >>>>>> <mailto:j...@cas-group.net> <mailto:j...@cas-group.net >>>>>> <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> I woke up today and saw the horrific news on TV that Trump has won >>>>>> again. It is incredibly bad on many levels. It is bad for the >>>>>> environment. The world will not be able to stop global warming without >>>>>> the U.S. It is bad for Ukraine as well. To me it feels like the end of >>>>>> civilization and democracy. The people who voted for him probably do not >>>>>> read Paxton, Arendt or Levitsky and Ziblatt. Or do not care. >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/562246/how-democracies-die-by-steven-levitsky-and-daniel-ziblatt/ >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/562246/how-democracies-die-by-steven-levitsky-and-daniel-ziblatt/> >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/562246/how-democracies-die-by-steven-levitsky-and-daniel-ziblatt/ >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/562246/how-democracies-die-by-steven-levitsky-and-daniel-ziblatt/>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> I was wondering how this is possible. If we define populism as an >>>>>> ideology that presents "the people" as a morally good force and >>>>>> contrasts them against "the elite", who are portrayed as corrupt and >>>>>> self-serving then this could be a reason why Trump is so successful. He >>>>>> is good at populism because he is corrupt and self-serving himself, and >>>>>> uses projection to accuse others. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/308163/what-is-populism-by-muller-jan-werner/9780141987378 >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/308163/what-is-populism-by-muller-jan-werner/9780141987378> >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/308163/what-is-populism-by-muller-jan-werner/9780141987378 >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/308163/what-is-populism-by-muller-jan-werner/9780141987378>> >>>> > > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. > / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
