Surely the money could come from the alchemy of the Federal Reserve or the various local equivalents which somehow has conjured up what is $3 --> 24 trillion at the flick of a mouse to save the banks...
M -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles Brass Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:47 PM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION,EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] Manufacturing's Fall Arthur We both agree that these are thorny issues to consider. Where would the money come from to provide a guaranteed income? Currently money is the medium used to facilitate exchange. If there is no exchange, where does the money come from and what makes us believe it is valuable? -- Charles Brass mobile 0409 198 738 Quoting Arthur Cordell <[email protected]>: > > How far do we go in monetizing services? Of course there is no end of > work to be done in society. Years ago much work was done for love or > obligation or just because it was there to be done. Over the years we > have brought much of this work into the economy and called it job > creation. This is a thorny area to discuss, but consider what happens > to our national accounts when someone who once was a "stay at home > mom" gets a job and contracts with a nanny, day care, maids, cleaning > services, etc. GDP rises and the shape and nature of society changes. > Elders who were cared for at home are now in "senior's residences" > etc. GDP is boosted once again. > > This is what a complex market society looks like. Sell one's talents > in the workplace and use the money to buy a host of work that would > otherwise have been done by the individual. It is a "win win" > outcome. But.....when everything has a price something intangible is > lost. > > Not saying to go back to "barefoot in the kitchen" but am saying that > we should remember that society is about balance. Not all work has to > be done via a transaction. > > A guaranteed annual income might allow for a lot of work to be done: > without having to price each transaction (and without having to tax > these > transactions) > > Arthur > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles > Brass > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 6:44 PM > To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Manufacturing's Fall > > Arthur > > To suggest that people might no longer be needed as workers is to > fundamentally confuse 'work' with 'job'. There is now, and always has > been, more work to be > done than we have people capable of doing it. What we might be facing is a > bit > of a crisis of knowing how to convert some of that work into a job (for > which > someone earns income) but if there is one thing the past hundred or so years > has taught us it is that humans are endlessly capable of creating what we > want. > > > A hundred years ago, economics had no way of valuing services, now the > service economy is much bigger than the physical economy. So long as > we have an exchange based economy, we will find a way to value that > exchange and that will > put plenty of spending money in people's hands. > > > -- > Charles Brass > mobile 0409 198 738 > > > Quoting Arthur Cordell <[email protected]>: > > > Maybe the future is less about new jobs but more about some form of > > guaranteed annual income. > > > > > > > > Sure there will be new jobs and people will fill them. But maybe > > there > are > > a host of people who are not needed in the economy as producers but > > are needed as consumers. > > > > > > > > How do we get income to people who are no longer needed as workers? > > How > do > > we do this and still maintain the dignity of the individual? > > > > > > > > Arthur > > > > > > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Keith > > Hudson > > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:47 AM > > To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Manufacturing's Fall > > > > > > > > The drift of Louis Uchitelle's article is utterly wrong. It's also > > ridiculous to say, as Thea Lea says at the end, that you can't > > rebuild the middle class without manufacturing. > > > > Manufacturing can look after itself -- as and when it's required by > > the economy. If America or Western Europe don't do it, then the > > Chinese will > -- > > and supply the products to us cheaper than we can do. Why should > > industrialization be extended in the advanced countries any more > > than it > has > > to? > > > > What's much more important is an altogether radicalized educational > > system for the increasingly specialized jobs of tomorrow's world. In > > 1700 in the UK, when parents had to pay for schooling for their > > children, literacy was at 65%. It's only 75% now despite our state > > school system and enforced attendance. I don't suppose the literacy > > rate in the US is any better. The whole system needs a total > > overhaul -- unless we want the Chinese to beat > at > > that, too. > > > > Keith Hudson > > > > . > > > > At 09:45 21/07/2009 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01CA09E8.05C9BBD0" > > Content-Language: en-us > > > > July 21, 2009 NY Times > > > > > > Obamas Strategy to Reverse Manufacturings Fall > > > > > > > > > > By LOUIS > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/u/louis_uc > hitell > > e/index.html?inline=nyt-per> UCHITELLE > > > > If the Obama administration has a strategy for reviving > > manufacturing, Douglas Bartlett would like to know what it is. > > > > Buffeted by foreign competition, Mr. Bartlett recently closed his > > printed circuit board factory, founded 57 years ago by his father, > > and laid off > the > > remaining 87 workers. Last week, he auctioned off the machinery, and > > soon > he > > will raze the factory itself in Cary, Ill. > > > > > > > > The property taxes are no longer affordable,Mr. Bartlett said > > glumly, so I am going to tear down the building and sit on the land, > > and hopefully sell it after the recession > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/r/recess > ion_an > > d_depression/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier> when land prices > > hopefully rise. > > > > > > > > Though manufacturing has long been in decline, the loss of factory > > jobs > has > > been especially brutal of late, with nearly two million disappearing > > since the recession began in December 2007. Even a few chief > > executives, heading companies that have shifted plenty of production > > abroad, are beginning to express alarm. > > > > > > > > We must make a serious commitment to manufacturing and exports. This > > is a national imperative,Jeffrey > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/i/jeffrey_ > r_imme > > lt/index.html?inline=nyt-per> R. Immelt, chairman and chief > > executive of General > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/general_electri > c_comp > > any/index.html?inline=nyt-org> Electric, said in a speech last > > month, > while > > acknowledging that G.E. was enriched by its overseas operations too. > > > > > > > > President > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_o > bama/i > > ndex.html?inline=nyt-per> Obama, agreeing in effect, has declared, > > The fight for American manufacturing is the fight for Americas > > future. > > > > > > > > The United States ranks behind every industrial nation except France > > in > the > > percentage of overall economic activity devoted to manufacturing > > 13.9 percent, the World > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/w/w > orld_b > > ank/index.html?inline=nyt-org> Bank reports, down 4 percentage > > points in > a > > decade. The 19-month-old recession has contributed noticeably to > > this decline. Industrial production has fallen 17.3 percent, the > > sharpest drop during a recession since the 1930s. > > > > > > > > So far, however, Mr. Obamas administration has not come up with a > > formal plan to address the rapid decline. Instead, it has pursued ad > > hoc initiatives bailing out General > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/general_motors_ > corpor > > ation/index.html?inline=nyt-org> Motors and Chrysler > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/chrysler_llc/in > dex.ht > > ml?inline=nyt-org> , for example, and pushing green energy by > > supporting > the > > manufacture of items like wind > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/w/wind_p > ower/i > > ndex.html?inline=nyt-classifier> turbines and solar panels. > > > > > > > > We want to make sure that we grow a manufacturing base for renewable > > energy,said Matthew Rogers, a senior adviser in the Energy > > Department, explaining that this is being accomplished in part by > > accelerating loan guarantees from zeroin the Bush years. > > > > > > > > Xunming Deng, a physicist and the chairman of the Xunlight > > Corporation, > sees > > himself as a beneficiary of what he describes as the Obama > > administrations more flexible loan guarantees. His factory in > > Toledo, Ohio, with 100 employees, is in the early stages of making > > solar panels, and Dr. Deng is already planning to quadruple the > > plants size. He has applied to the > Energy > > Department for a $120 million loan guarantee. If he gets it, he will > > not have to pay the hefty fees charged for loan guarantees before > > Mr. Obama > took > > office. > > > > > > > > Getting rid of that fee makes the loan guarantee very attractive and > > very helpful,Dr. Deng said. We cant grow as fast without it. > > > > > > > > Beyond energy, the administrations approach gradually outlines the > elements > > of a manufacturing policy what Lawrence > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/lawrence > _h_sum > > mers/index.html?inline=nyt-per> H. Summers, director of the > > National Economic Council, described as a number of things to > > support > manufacturing. > > > > The auto bailout, for all its improvisations, served notice that the > > administration would probably rescue any giant manufacturer it > > deemed too big (or too iconic) to fail, and would help the suppliers > > of failing > giants > > transition to other industries. > > > > > > > > The Buy America clause in the stimulus > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/u/united > _state > > s_economy/economic_stimulus/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier> > > package pointedly favors the purchase of American-made goods for > > infrastructure projects. The Commerce Department is adding $100 > > million, more than double the current outlay, to a program that > > helps American manufacturers operate more effectively. And trade > > agreements negotiated by the Bush > administration > > agreements that would make the United States more open to imported > > manufactured goods have been allowed to languish in Congress. > > > > The administrations policy is evolving in the right direction,said > > Representative Sander M. Levin, Democrat of Michigan, who is > > particularly concerned about auto imports. I think they have > > essentially shed the political chains that prevented government from > > having a role in manufacturing. They are working their way toward > > what makes sense. > > > > Not everyone agrees. > > > > > > > > Bush and Obama,Mr. Bartlett said scornfully, one is as bad as the > > other in terms of manufacturing policy. > > > > > > > > He acknowledged that the recession was the immediate reason for the > > demise of his familys business. But what really did it in, he said > > in an > interview, > > was the competition from less expensive Chinese circuit boards less > > expensive, he argued, because the Chinese undervalue their currency > > and > this > > administration, like the ones before it, lets them get away with it. > > > > > > > > Our orders went from $8 million at an annual rate to $4 million, > > which was not enough to make money,he said. > > > > > > > > Mr. Bartlett, who is co-chairman of an organization called the Fair > Currency > > Coalition, said that Chinese competitors charged only $1 for each > > printed circuit board sold in this country, while he charged $1.40. > > Like many economists and government officials, he says he believes > > the Chinese currency is artificially undervalued. As a > > countermeasure, he said the > Obama > > administration should impose a 40 percent tariff on imported Chinese > goods. > > > > > > > > I can compete against Chinese entrepreneurs, and Chinese labor cost > > is not that big a factor,he said, but I cannot compete against the > > Chinese governments manufacturing policies. > > > > > > > > Manufacturing has long been viewed as an essential pillar of a > > powerful economy. It generates millions of well-paid jobs for those > > with only a > high > > school education, a huge segment of the population. No other sector > > contributes more to the nations overall productivity, economists > > say. And > as > > manufacturing weakens, the country becomes ever more dependent on > > imports > of > > merchandise, computers, machinery and the like running up a trade > > deficit that in time could undermine the > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/curren > cy/dol > > lar/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier> dollar and the nations > > capacity to sustain so many imports. > > > > > > > > One tactic for strengthening the manufacturing sector, in the > > administrations view, would be a shift in tax policy. The research > > and development tax credit, which is now subject to renewal by > > Congress, would be made permanent, encouraging much more R.& D. > > among manufacturers, a senior Commerce Department official argued. > > And foreign taxes paid on profits earned overseas would not be > > deductible in this country until the profits were repatriated, a > > restriction that might discourage locating factories abroad. > > > > > > > > The goal is to arrest manufacturings dizzying decline. It was the > > pillar > on > > which we built the middle class,said Thea Lee, policy director for > > the A.F.L.-C.I.O. > > > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/a > merica > > > n_federation_of_laborcongress_of_industrial_organizations/index.html?i > nline= > > nyt-org> , and it is hard to see how you rebuild the middle class > > nyt-org> without > > reviving manufacturing. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > Keith Hudson, Bath, England, <www.evolutionary-economics.org > > <http://www.evolutionary-economics.org/> >, > > <http://www.amazon.com/dp/1906557020 > <http://www.amazon.com/dp/1906557020/> > > / <http://www.amazon.com/dp/1906557020/> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
