Thanks to Arthur for mentioning basic income. If we don't think about it during this crisis....when we're clearly not going back to the Good Old Days....well, what can I say! Sally
Quoting Arthur Cordell <[email protected]>: > I guess what I been saying can best be summed by the following web site. > > Genuineprogressindicator.com > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genuine_progress_indicator > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Arthur Cordell > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:34 PM > To: 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION' > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Manufacturing's Fall > > How far do we go in monetizing services? Of course there is no end of work > to be done in society. Years ago much work was done for love or obligation > or just because it was there to be done. Over the years we have brought > much of this work into the economy and called it job creation. This is a > thorny area to discuss, but consider what happens to our national accounts > when someone who once was a "stay at home mom" gets a job and contracts with > a nanny, day care, maids, cleaning services, etc. GDP rises and the shape > and nature of society changes. Elders who were cared for at home are now in > "senior's residences" etc. GDP is boosted once again. > > This is what a complex market society looks like. Sell one's talents in the > workplace and use the money to buy a host of work that would otherwise have > been done by the individual. It is a "win win" outcome. But.....when > everything has a price something intangible is lost. > > Not saying to go back to "barefoot in the kitchen" but am saying that we > should remember that society is about balance. Not all work has to be done > via a transaction. > > A guaranteed annual income might allow for a lot of work to be done: without > having to price each transaction (and without having to tax these > transactions) > > Arthur > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles Brass > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 6:44 PM > To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Manufacturing's Fall > > Arthur > > To suggest that people might no longer be needed as workers is to > fundamentally > confuse 'work' with 'job'. There is now, and always has been, more work to > be > done than we have people capable of doing it. What we might be facing is a > bit > of a crisis of knowing how to convert some of that work into a job (for > which > someone earns income) but if there is one thing the past hundred or so years > has taught us it is that humans are endlessly capable of creating what we > want. > > > A hundred years ago, economics had no way of valuing services, now the > service > economy is much bigger than the physical economy. So long as we have an > exchange based economy, we will find a way to value that exchange and that > will > put plenty of spending money in people's hands. > > > -- > Charles Brass > mobile 0409 198 738 > > > Quoting Arthur Cordell <[email protected]>: > >> Maybe the future is less about new jobs but more about some form of >> guaranteed annual income. >> >> >> >> Sure there will be new jobs and people will fill them. But maybe there > are >> a host of people who are not needed in the economy as producers but are >> needed as consumers. >> >> >> >> How do we get income to people who are no longer needed as workers? How > do >> we do this and still maintain the dignity of the individual? >> >> >> >> Arthur >> >> >> >> >> >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Keith Hudson >> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:47 AM >> To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION >> Subject: Re: [Futurework] Manufacturing's Fall >> >> >> >> The drift of Louis Uchitelle's article is utterly wrong. It's also >> ridiculous to say, as Thea Lea says at the end, that you can't rebuild the >> middle class without manufacturing. >> >> Manufacturing can look after itself -- as and when it's required by the >> economy. If America or Western Europe don't do it, then the Chinese will > -- >> and supply the products to us cheaper than we can do. Why should >> industrialization be extended in the advanced countries any more than it > has >> to? >> >> What's much more important is an altogether radicalized educational system >> for the increasingly specialized jobs of tomorrow's world. In 1700 in the >> UK, when parents had to pay for schooling for their children, literacy was >> at 65%. It's only 75% now despite our state school system and enforced >> attendance. I don't suppose the literacy rate in the US is any better. The >> whole system needs a total overhaul -- unless we want the Chinese to beat > at >> that, too. >> >> Keith Hudson >> >> . >> >> At 09:45 21/07/2009 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >> >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01CA09E8.05C9BBD0" >> Content-Language: en-us >> >> July 21, 2009 NY Times >> >> >> Obamas Strategy to Reverse Manufacturings Fall >> >> >> >> >> By LOUIS >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/u/louis_uchitell >> e/index.html?inline=nyt-per> UCHITELLE >> >> If the Obama administration has a strategy for reviving manufacturing, >> Douglas Bartlett would like to know what it is. >> >> Buffeted by foreign competition, Mr. Bartlett recently closed his printed >> circuit board factory, founded 57 years ago by his father, and laid off > the >> remaining 87 workers. Last week, he auctioned off the machinery, and soon > he >> will raze the factory itself in Cary, Ill. >> >> >> >> The property taxes are no longer affordable,Mr. Bartlett said glumly, so I >> am going to tear down the building and sit on the land, and hopefully sell >> it after the recession >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/r/recession_an >> d_depression/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier> when land prices hopefully >> rise. >> >> >> >> Though manufacturing has long been in decline, the loss of factory jobs > has >> been especially brutal of late, with nearly two million disappearing since >> the recession began in December 2007. Even a few chief executives, heading >> companies that have shifted plenty of production abroad, are beginning to >> express alarm. >> >> >> >> We must make a serious commitment to manufacturing and exports. This is a >> national imperative,Jeffrey >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/i/jeffrey_r_imme >> lt/index.html?inline=nyt-per> R. Immelt, chairman and chief executive of >> General >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/general_electric_comp >> any/index.html?inline=nyt-org> Electric, said in a speech last month, > while >> acknowledging that G.E. was enriched by its overseas operations too. >> >> >> >> President >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/i >> ndex.html?inline=nyt-per> Obama, agreeing in effect, has declared, The >> fight for American manufacturing is the fight for Americas future. >> >> >> >> The United States ranks behind every industrial nation except France in > the >> percentage of overall economic activity devoted to manufacturing 13.9 >> percent, the World >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/w/world_b >> ank/index.html?inline=nyt-org> Bank reports, down 4 percentage points in > a >> decade. The 19-month-old recession has contributed noticeably to this >> decline. Industrial production has fallen 17.3 percent, the sharpest drop >> during a recession since the 1930s. >> >> >> >> So far, however, Mr. Obamas administration has not come up with a formal >> plan to address the rapid decline. Instead, it has pursued ad hoc >> initiatives bailing out General >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/general_motors_corpor >> ation/index.html?inline=nyt-org> Motors and Chrysler >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/chrysler_llc/index.ht >> ml?inline=nyt-org> , for example, and pushing green energy by supporting > the >> manufacture of items like wind >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/w/wind_power/i >> ndex.html?inline=nyt-classifier> turbines and solar panels. >> >> >> >> We want to make sure that we grow a manufacturing base for renewable >> energy,said Matthew Rogers, a senior adviser in the Energy Department, >> explaining that this is being accomplished in part by accelerating loan >> guarantees from zeroin the Bush years. >> >> >> >> Xunming Deng, a physicist and the chairman of the Xunlight Corporation, > sees >> himself as a beneficiary of what he describes as the Obama administrations >> more flexible loan guarantees. His factory in Toledo, Ohio, with 100 >> employees, is in the early stages of making solar panels, and Dr. Deng is >> already planning to quadruple the plants size. He has applied to the > Energy >> Department for a $120 million loan guarantee. If he gets it, he will not >> have to pay the hefty fees charged for loan guarantees before Mr. Obama > took >> office. >> >> >> >> Getting rid of that fee makes the loan guarantee very attractive and very >> helpful,Dr. Deng said. We cant grow as fast without it. >> >> >> >> Beyond energy, the administrations approach gradually outlines the > elements >> of a manufacturing policy what Lawrence >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/lawrence_h_sum >> mers/index.html?inline=nyt-per> H. Summers, director of the National >> Economic Council, described as a number of things to support > manufacturing. >> >> The auto bailout, for all its improvisations, served notice that the >> administration would probably rescue any giant manufacturer it deemed too >> big (or too iconic) to fail, and would help the suppliers of failing > giants >> transition to other industries. >> >> >> >> The Buy America clause in the stimulus >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/u/united_state >> s_economy/economic_stimulus/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier> package >> pointedly favors the purchase of American-made goods for infrastructure >> projects. The Commerce Department is adding $100 million, more than double >> the current outlay, to a program that helps American manufacturers operate >> more effectively. And trade agreements negotiated by the Bush > administration >> agreements that would make the United States more open to imported >> manufactured goods have been allowed to languish in Congress. >> >> The administrations policy is evolving in the right direction,said >> Representative Sander M. Levin, Democrat of Michigan, who is particularly >> concerned about auto imports. I think they have essentially shed the >> political chains that prevented government from having a role in >> manufacturing. They are working their way toward what makes sense. >> >> Not everyone agrees. >> >> >> >> Bush and Obama,Mr. Bartlett said scornfully, one is as bad as the other in >> terms of manufacturing policy. >> >> >> >> He acknowledged that the recession was the immediate reason for the demise >> of his familys business. But what really did it in, he said in an > interview, >> was the competition from less expensive Chinese circuit boards less >> expensive, he argued, because the Chinese undervalue their currency and > this >> administration, like the ones before it, lets them get away with it. >> >> >> >> Our orders went from $8 million at an annual rate to $4 million, which was >> not enough to make money,he said. >> >> >> >> Mr. Bartlett, who is co-chairman of an organization called the Fair > Currency >> Coalition, said that Chinese competitors charged only $1 for each printed >> circuit board sold in this country, while he charged $1.40. Like many >> economists and government officials, he says he believes the Chinese >> currency is artificially undervalued. As a countermeasure, he said the > Obama >> administration should impose a 40 percent tariff on imported Chinese > goods. >> >> >> >> I can compete against Chinese entrepreneurs, and Chinese labor cost is not >> that big a factor,he said, but I cannot compete against the Chinese >> governments manufacturing policies. >> >> >> >> Manufacturing has long been viewed as an essential pillar of a powerful >> economy. It generates millions of well-paid jobs for those with only a > high >> school education, a huge segment of the population. No other sector >> contributes more to the nations overall productivity, economists say. And > as >> manufacturing weakens, the country becomes ever more dependent on imports > of >> merchandise, computers, machinery and the like running up a trade deficit >> that in time could undermine the >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/currency/dol >> lar/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier> dollar and the nations capacity to >> sustain so many imports. >> >> >> >> One tactic for strengthening the manufacturing sector, in the >> administrations view, would be a shift in tax policy. The research and >> development tax credit, which is now subject to renewal by Congress, would >> be made permanent, encouraging much more R.& D. among manufacturers, a >> senior Commerce Department official argued. And foreign taxes paid on >> profits earned overseas would not be deductible in this country until the >> profits were repatriated, a restriction that might discourage locating >> factories abroad. >> >> >> >> The goal is to arrest manufacturings dizzying decline. It was the pillar > on >> which we built the middle class,said Thea Lee, policy director for the >> A.F.L.-C.I.O. >> > <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/america >> > n_federation_of_laborcongress_of_industrial_organizations/index.html?inline= >> nyt-org> , and it is hard to see how you rebuild the middle class without >> reviving manufacturing. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Futurework mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework >> >> Keith Hudson, Bath, England, <www.evolutionary-economics.org >> <http://www.evolutionary-economics.org/> >, >> <http://www.amazon.com/dp/1906557020 > <http://www.amazon.com/dp/1906557020/> >> / <http://www.amazon.com/dp/1906557020/> > >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
