Natalia, At 22:40 12/06/2010 -0700, you wrote:
Keith,I see that my estranged twin sister from China, Natalie, has been writing you again.
Well, it's good to communicate with someone with a sense of courtesy.
And I thank you for that History Channel episode, but Keith, you missed the long beautiful bits in between, and have decided to favour the images of scarcity and competition, so crucial to the survival of corporatism.
When I was a boy I read a naturalist in a newspaper describing a male robin trying to rescue another robin from drowning in a stream. When I was older I learn from expert ornithologists that almost certainly one robin was trying to kill the other because it was in his territory. (Two male blackbirds visit my garden lawn looking for worms most mornings. If they both happen to meet together they fight each other, sometimes for minutes at a time.) But, strange as it may seem, I, too, find a great deal of beauty in nature beside the brutality. A sparrowhawk recently killed a chaffinch in my garden and, after eating all the muscles and innards, left the skeleton and feathers spread-eagled on my patio. Do I praise the beauty of the sparrow hawk or deplore the savage kill of the chaffinch?
Most evolution has developed because of environmental changes.
Yes, but not quite. Unless DNA also has the capacity to have mutational accidents (and still survive into at least one generation) then environmental changes can easily extinguish a life-form.
Most species today have heritable common genes, and as you know we are but a few genes away from most other life here. That species disappear lately has more to do with interference from humans.
Yes, we are unfortunately slaughtering species in their thousands -- way above what would otherwise be a "standard" rate of extinction.
I don't see the problem with inherent evolution being the standard. Would you consider it ideal to be stagnant? Reality is about change, at whatever pace it occurs. But massive DNA warfare, Keith?
It's not massive in the sense that every life-form is battling every other life-form. But there is competition for food, directly or indirectly, at every level.
In this stage of Earth's development/demise you have nothing to fear from nature or the cosmos. The species are interdependent, and living peacefully with their environment and more or less amongst themselves. No major headlines about camels taking over penguin territory and slaughtering their young, nor are any animals currently dropping nuclear bombs anywhere. Nor are the bears or elephants wiping each other out. Where you should be concerned is in following the money, and the wake of its concentration--the destruction of your home world, your air, your water, your food, and your ability to think realistically. We have arrived at the point where we must address climate change chiefly because of defying natural laws.
Certainly we should address problems -- if we knew exactly what they were and what we were doing. Apart from trying to preserve as much natural ecosystem as possible, I don't put forward any specific proposals of my own.
Don't think you can pull any old economist's lame excuse out of your hat and somehow get people to believe that anything but a natural solution to restoration of our former environment will work. Well, you can, but it's pathetic. And it's stifling to evolution at every level.
Basically, I'm a chemist, not an economist. I just play at it. It's an enjoyable hobby of mine.
You are obviously of the belief that because of our genes, we are inherently competitive and exploitative.
Yes.
But this doesn't take into account that we also come together for a full range of human needs, curiosity, learning and preservation of the species.
Yes also.
We have evolving minds primarily because of awareness, not so much because of DNA.
Almost certainly due to the frontal lobes of our brains -- of which we have a great deal compared with other animals. And those lobes are certainly the product of DNA.
Chemicals themselves are neutral--they have no awareness built in. But the cells organization of the DNA simple sugars and proteins--that remain unchanged over billions of years--is what is significant.
No they don't. A great many genes are the same as they've been for perhaps a billion years (some of ours are identical to some in yeast), but they now carry out entirely different functions. Proteins mutate, too. And it's also being realized that there is back-mutation into DNA -- which is one of the major revolutions in biology in the last 50 years.
The need for life to reproduce is fundamental. And it is awareness that pervades all life forms, dictating to the chemicals. Awareness spans the neurons as synapses. There is nothing physical to a synapse. It is merely a gap. A gap that organizes millions of neurons.
A synapse is far more than a gap. It is a very sophisticated system of chemical transmission which is organized by electronic traffic in the neurons and, in turn, can itself modify the traffic.
A gap is home of the higher mind. Now that's efficiency, effortless to boot.
It isn't effortless. Synapses require a great amount of feeding with glucose and oxygen and many other things besides.
And it's natural. Science cannot assign it a physicality nor read brain energy from it--only from the areas of processing neuronal activity. Penfield said that brain records, mind experiences.
Mind is to brain as digestion is to stomach. It's a different category of description.
Do you think that Mozart's mind was inspired only by competition? How about your own?
Probably (not totally seriously), Mozart's early mind was much influenced by his father who wanted both of them to gain high reputations (and money!) in the world of music. Me? I'm very competitive, whether in sport, business or in trying to be rational in what I believe. But I also relax. I like to garden. In fact, as soon as I have written this I will be out in the open air contentedly weeding my lawn (although, come to think of it, I want it to be the best lawn in the neighbourhood!). (Mind you, I dawdle also. I watch the birds go about their business. I do odd things on occasion also like helping worms going in the wrong direction on my patio. Sometimes I even lie on the ground and watch a snail, with its incredible saw-like teeth, eating a leaf. Fascinating. I'm competitive -- even enormously greedy -- about all sorts of interesting things.)
Keith
Natalia Kuzmyn Keith Hudson wrote:Natalie,Unfortunately we don't necessarily have the reality of any sort of "splendid and perfect job of things since the beginning of time" as you put it. We may have, if there's any sort of Designer-God behind the scene. But, otherwise, the best reality we have so far is of life starting in an opportunistic way just as soon as the earth cooled down and allowed certain sorts of chemical reactions involving carbon-based molecules to take place.After then, once self-replicating molecules got going, every new mutation exploited what was available to its maximum possible extent -- no holds barred. All types of bacteria do this and all species of plants and animals do this. Each one expands either until it exploits its food supply to the maximum possible extent and then crashes, or it is moderated by the expansion of other types and species which compete directly and indirectly for food.At any one instant of time all is finely in balance -- as a Designer-God might have intended -- but, in fact, the whole ecosystem is constantly changing with species going extinct and new species arising. The whole of evolution is a case of massive warfare of every type of DNA weapon going on between mutating entities. In our case, for example, now that sabre-toothed tigers are absent, our immune systems (if we're lucky) are constantly evolving barriers against viruses and bacteria (and passing on the safety features to our children) while the latter (particularly viruses, which mutate very quickly) are also constantly evolving in order to overcome our immune systems (or at least appropriate some of our food parasitically). Our "junk DNA" is littered with thousands of remnants of immobilized viruses. We've even re-incorporated some of these ex-viruses as working parts of new operational genes.In short, it's all a dog-fight. And if, at some future date, we get into space before the sun expands in a few billion years and fries us all, and subsequently we might find another planet with life-sustaining potential, we'll undoubtedly find ourselves in another dog-fight.Keith At 23:00 11/06/2010 -0700, you wrote:Ed,The vision need not be anything but the stuff of reality, which still leaves us with what our minds will inevitably envision.Reality is the only vision that is guaranteed to work. So, perhaps you would agree that following the natural laws of the universe that have done a splendid and perfect job of things since the beginning of time, we can realistically hope to rejoin the natural stream of evolution.Any natural system such as that of our esteemed Earth, capable of forming and efficiently sustaining life and its necessary and interdependent ecosystems for approximately 8 million species, has got to be the most scientifically trustworthy model to implement, yet it continues to be ignored--at least since, say, humankind started cooking its food or the first economist started profiting from dismantling sustainable economies.We rely on natural law for every aspect of our being, from the most impressive of technologies to our constant heartbeat, yet because we have continued to violate these laws at almost every turn of modern living, we mis-create anxieties and render our children defenseless or defensive against a world fast losing touch with creativity and fulfillment.Nature's model is orderly, efficient, and essentially evolutionary. And its example can be applied to every aspect of civilized life to restore balance. A nation that follows natural laws would swiftly lead as an example to other nations, precluding any disputes about correct realities.This is a huge undertaking, yet the facility with which we could implement these laws would quickly unravel the complexities of existing governmental systems. The will to do so depends either on necessity or education. Hopefully the latter, by consensus, soon.Natalia Kuzmyn Ed Weick wrote:Iâ¬"m not so sure that we need another vision.  There have been thousands of them since humankind began.  Theyâ¬"ve begun with beautiful inspirational thoughts.  Theyâ¬"ve usually ended with repression and slaughter.  Christianity began with the simple words of Christ and became a vast, repressive and all controlling machine.  In its essence, communism is built on the simple and beautiful idea that the people who do the work should own the tools they work with.  Out of that came Stalinist Russia.  Instead of more visions, what we may need is a stronger sense of realities of the world we live in. Perhaps thatâ¬"s not possible.  It could lead to huge fights over which sense of reality is the correct one and should therefore prevail.Ed From: Arthur Cordell <mailto:[email protected]><[email protected]>To: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] Cc: Futurework <mailto:[email protected]><[email protected]>Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 9:18:30 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] [Ottawadissenters] Great foresightAgree. We really need a positive image for the future. Economic growth, development, regional expansion, etc. have all been seen to be wanting at the least and more often seen to be destructive. What positive images have people come across.  Arthur ÂFrom: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] m [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lawrence de BivortSent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:12 PMTo: <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]Cc: Futurework Subject: Re: [Ottawadissenters] Great foresight  Good catch, Steve.Yes, we have now become dependent and dominated by the very megasystems that we have ourselves created. And they are too complex to understand and too expensive to improve.ÂBut the game is not over, by a long shot, and we humans have many tools yet in our toolbox. The main threat comes, I think, from those sunk in despair because they lack the imagine to find solutions, and from those so swallowed in anger that they lack the energy for anything else. Cheers,  Lawry    On Jun 10, 2010, at 9:18 AM, Steve Kurtz wrote: Â"We have geared the machines and locked all together into interdependence; we have built the great cities; now there is no escape. We have gathered vast populations incapable of free survival, insulated From the strong earth, each person in himself helpless, on all dependent. The circle is closed, and the net Is being hauled in."   ~ From The Purse Seine, Robinson Jeffers, 1937    __._,_.___ 13032e0.jpg Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ottawadissenters/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnOTZodThyBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE1MjA5MDU5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA4MzUxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMjc2MjE4NzE0>Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=email%20delivery:%20Digest>Switch delivery to Daily Digest | <mailto:[email protected]?subject=change%20delivery%20format:%20Fully%20Featured>Switch to Fully Featured <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ottawadissenters;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN2c5YnRrBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE1MjA5MDU5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA4MzUxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTI3NjIxODcxNA-->Visit Your Group | <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! 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Keith Hudson, Saltford, England
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