Bovine Growth Hormone - fed to dairy cattle to increase milk
production - is chemically & structurally very similar to human growth
hormone.... Hmmmmm!
Barry
On Nov 7, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Ray Harrell wrote:
Keith, there was no milk prior to European invasion and the Osage
were over six feet tall. The Sioux and Osage were/are tall had
shoulders that looked like human buffalo. Still do. As for your
comment about Asians, it could just as well have been about Jews who
were also small when they came here. I’ve seen Chinese in my
building that are over six feet tall. My Jewish adopted grandson
is 12 and is six feet tall. My wife’s nephew was 6’2” when he was
13 and weighed 220 lbs. They live in Tennessee. His parents
were stocky but normal height. My grandson’s father is six feet
and skinny, mother is 5’4”. Something is going on.
REH
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]
] On Behalf Of Keith Hudson
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 4:09 AM
To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION; pete
Subject: Re: [Futurework] Epigenesis -- was Indian prejudice
At 00:57 07/11/2010 -0700, Pete Vincent wrote (in a pleasant non-
aggressive way):
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Keith Hudson wrote:
Wherever intensive manual agriculture was practised around the
world,
> the nutritionally poor diet (carbohydrate-rich, protein-poor)
resulted in
> short and underweight individuals compared with man in Neolithic
times. This
> was due to epigenetic effects on the normal developmental genes in
the
> embryo. When diets began to improve during industrial times --
from about 200
> years ago in Europe -- epigenetic control began relaxing in stages
and,
> within about five or six generations, the size and weight of
babies improved
> each generation -- and, of course, in the adult. In the UK, for
example,
> upper middle-class individuals had recovered full Neolithic size
and weight
> about three generations ago while most of the population are only
just about
> reaching it now. (Americans got there sooner. Even as late as the
1940s when
> American soldiers were arriving in England preparatory to the
invasion of
> Germany-occupied Europe, it was noticed that on average they were
several
> inches taller and many pounds heavier than English soldiers.) The
full
> recovery of normal weight and size appears to take about five or six
> generations of a nutritionally adequate diet -- each new
generation stepping
> upwards, as it were, (roughly a gain of about a quarter-pound in
birth weight
> each successive generation). The same effect is now occurring in
parts of
> Asia because they are now weaning themselves away from an almost
exclusively
> rice/millet/wheat diet. The Japanese are still about two
generations away
> from full epigenetic recovery while other Asians such as the
Vietnamese or
> the Chinese are still distinctly small and are still several
generations away
> from full Neolithic stature. (The Dalits of India are still
probably a couple
> of centuries away from full stature -- if indeed, they ever
receive an
> adequate diet.)
>
I'm afraid this doesn't quite work. I believe the real reason for
north
americans being larger is the large amount of dairy they consume, but
I'm not sure.
Yes, this must be significant. This is probably one of the main
reasons why the American soldiers who came to England in the 1940s
were so much taller and heavier than the English soldiers. But there
was meat also. (I remember that in the '50s [the UK still being on
war-time food rationing] when my [apparent] girlfriend took me to a
party at an American airbase in Yorkshire, I could hardly believe
the buffet food that was laid out there -- particularly all the
different sorts of meats. [It turned out that my girlfriend really
fancied an American officer -- I never saw her again after the
party! Gosh, she was lovely! Her name was Marion. I'll never forget
her.] )
At any rate, the problem with your thesis
It's not my thesis. It's just that I try to keep up-to-date with
genetics. The fact of epigenesis, particularly as it affects body
size (but much else besides), is now becoming well-established in
biology. (It's only really been adequately demonstrated since the
Human Genome Project in 2003, so there are still some old-diehards
around.) We have about 20,000 genes and epigenetic control over
them produces at least 100,000 two- or three-gene coalitions which
affect our physiology and behaviour. Their subtleties and
predispositions will probably take many decades to identify -- if at
all to identify fully because new epigenetic settings can take place
at any time.
is that both
europeans and asians arriving in north america, who adopt the north
american diet, have children who grow to the north american norm, in
the first generation;
I would be deeply interested in any evidence that supports your
statement. If a typically small-sized Asian couple arrive in America
their children will still be small, no matter how adequate their
diet. If they have a son, however, then his epigenetic settings will
adjust slightly in the years before puberty [in the pre-sperm DNA
machinery in his testes] and, even if he marries an underweight
Asian girl, he will have children who will, on average, be taller
and heavier than his wife and parents. (Changes in epigenetic
settings only take place in boys in the years before puberty. They
don't occur in girls because they are born with all the
['finalized'] eggs they will ever use in their lifetime. On the
other hand, boys only produce [epigenetically adjusted] sperm after
puberty. However, when he becomes a parent in due course his
epigenetic changes are inherited by his girl offspring as well as
boys.)
Keith
and this has been true for the last half century,
which is the period in which north america has been well stocked with
nutritious food. (I'll leave aside the subject of the rise of junk
food,
and the current decline in nutritional habits.)
-Pete
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Keith Hudson, Saltford, England
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