Let's cut the crap. Chris was kicked off the list because he needled and tormented people. I've not found Ray to do anything that should have him kicked off. The list has been great since he came back. He speaks from a rather different point of view but one which we can try to understand and respond to.
Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Harrell To: 'Keith Hudson' ; 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION,EDUCATION' Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Epigenesis -- was Indian prejudice So Arthur, Sally and the list, Is this the group consensus? That I'm a racist and that Harry and Keith's statements about the African American culture are accurate rather than pompous, self serving pieces of arrogant garbage? REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Keith Hudson Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 4:11 AM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION; Harry Pollard Subject: Re: [Futurework] Epigenesis -- was Indian prejudice Well said, Harry. Keith At 00:57 29/12/2010 -0800, you wrote: The racism is all yours, Ray. I am happy to treat all peoples the same way. You want to change the way things are done according to the way they are in this case the color of their skin. Your refusal to accept that there may be a problem condemns any chance of making things work. We had a fine radio personality in Los Angeles named Michael Jackson. He was a great host and was very left wing in his politics something useful in Hollywood where he could always get celebrity guests. Some years ago, he had I think Jesse Jackson on the show and in discussion, Michael said If a white mother takes her ill baby into a hospital and two doctors come forward one white, the other black who will she hand her baby to? They agreed she would hand the baby to the white doctor. Then Jesse Jackson added If a black mother brought her ill baby into the hospital she would hand it to the white doctor. There is one problem. Then we have Cosby saying that if some black kids were walking toward him on the sidewalk, he would cross the road. There are many other instances of which the factory example was one. I remember on one occasion pointing out in class that some 80% of violent crimes are committed by blacks (I based this on the fact that 80% of the victims of violent crimes are black.) A student who didnt believe looked up the Federal statistics and told the class that hed found more than 50% of the murders were committed by blacks. (Ive never checked that but assume he properly found it.) These are in the past I havent looked at this situation in a long time. I just hope things are better now. I did see the other day that we are wasting money sending kids to college who shouldnt go there. They drop out all colors but the largest percentage of drop-outs are black some 70% of them. We should certainly stop wholesale enrollment of kids in college, but concentrate on those who wont drop out among them the 30% of blacks. Now, if your ideology insists these things arent true, you cant help the black people in our society. There are millions of black people particularly older people - who dare not go out in the evening. And the agony of losing a child to a stray bullet seems to come up often. I would love things to change, but it wont come if we refuse to recognize the way things are and take steps based on the reality of the black experience and the reality of the reaction of non-black people to it. But, that wouldnt be politically correct so I fear our black families dont have much of a chance. Harry From: Ray Harrell [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 6:41 AM To: [email protected]; 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION' Subject: RE: [Futurework] Epigenesis -- was Indian prejudice Parallel structures Harry. A little bit of information, too little and an unwillingness to recognize parallel structures coming to a conclusion of cooked data and self interest. Sounds like racism to me. I was there in Washington Ghetto in 1964, were you anywhere near a ghetto? You comment sounds like the dumb comments of simpleminded capitalists from South Dakota to Belize who complain about the locals because they wont give them rights to just about everything. I wont talk to you again on either of these posts and if this attitude continues here my time is wasted. You are not interested in justice or solutions, only your own story. The pity is that some of your story on the use of land parallels mine by I acknowledge national boundaries and you dont. Our land use was even called Georgist by the Robber Barons. But this is all old stuff. Been there, already talked about it endlessly and there has been no movement that I can see so this is a waste. You should think one word living in California. Okie! REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Harry Pollard Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:46 AM To: 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION'; 'Keith Hudson' Subject: Re: [Futurework] Epigenesis -- was Indian prejudice Ray, Enterprise factories were set at the edge of black communities to provide them with work. It was found that before very long the factories were filled with workers -- Hispanics. There is a problem with blacks that probably rests on decades of welfare -- a problem that is evident in many nonblack welfare state situations. It is a lack of industriousness. What we have done to people by providing welfare instead of justice is a crime. Harry From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ray Harrell Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 1:05 PM To: 'Keith Hudson'; 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION' Subject: Re: [Futurework] Epigenesis -- was Indian prejudice Bull Shit! REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Keith Hudson Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 11:21 AM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: [Futurework] Epigenesis -- was Indian prejudice Ed, The puzzling aspect of modern African-Americans is why they haven't done much better in the professions, business and politics since slavery was abolished. James Flynn, among others, has pretty conclusively proved that it's nothing to do with inferior intelligence -- they are as much up to the mark as white Americans. The same could be said for the Dalits of India or the Buraku and Ainu of Japan. Even though in both countries the 'untouchable' castes have had full constitutional rights since the 50s, and although much is made of the few exceptional individuals, they hardly feature at all in any important sphere of life. The same could be said for the castes at the other end of the social scale -- the Brahmins of India or the upper middle-class of the UK (which, via Cambridge and Oxford Universities, still almost completely dominates business, politics, professions and much else that's important ever since this new class rose during the 19th century). (America is still supposed to be an equal-opportunity society but it is becoming obvious that an elite Harvard-Yale class is already growing fast in America, similar to the UK -- and the same in France and Germany.) The new and fast-growing field of epigenetics in biology is now beginning to give us the reasons why social status, high or low, perseverates for generations, and which can't be adequately explained on the basis of genes, or nutrition, or education alone. This is the major discovery that emerged from the Human Genome Project from 2003 onwards. It isn't genes alone (or their potentiation alone) which is inherited, but also the particular ways that genes are "set" in order to work in coalition with others. In fact, without these epigenetic coalitions the genes couldn't do their job at all. The agents that decide on these genetic settings lie in the DNA but outside the genes themselves. In effect these agents act rather like cowboys -- they lasso genes that lie at far distances from one another on the DNA (sometimes on different chromosomes) and bring them together so the coalition-gene can do its stuff efficiently. There are two important points to this: firstly, epigenetic settings are as much involved in propensities of behaviour as much as physiological effects; secondly, the settings can be inherited for many generations, or even thousands of years, before they might re-set themselves -- but feeling their way back to what was the original "standard" setting may take several generations. If we consider that culture can be considered as a social collectivity of behaviour, then epigenesis is beginning to explain several mysteries, not only those of long persistence of social status mentioned above but also why some cultures/nations cannot manage their economies in the same way as the West. For example, Argentina was the fourth most prosperous country in the world at the turn of the 20th century when it was selling vast quantities of grain and meat to Europe, but somehow they couldn't consolidate this in their financial institutions and politics -- it has defaulted on its government loans and issued new currencies several times since its peak. Epigenetics is probably the fastest growing sub-field within biology (because gene-coalition propensities are also involved in many diseases such as type 2 diabetes and many cancers) but what fascinates me is that this may finally explain many puzzling features of social castes but also economic development of this country or that. Keith At 09:15 06/11/2010 -0400, you wrote: Pete, you say "I rather suspect the primary reason for using African slaves was the convenient skin marker that made it impossible for the labour to ever be free of pursuit." That may have been a reason, but not likely the primary one. In building up their plantations, Europeans tried to use native Indian labour, but soon found that the Indians were not immune to European diseases and thus died off in large numbers. People from west Africa were generally immune and were brought in to replace the indigenous slaves. The chart below illustrates what happened in Guatemala. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "pete" <[email protected]> To: "RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION,EDUCATION" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Indian prejudice > On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Christoph Reuss wrote: > >> Malcolm Blackmore wrote: >> > The MacGregor side of my >> > family were evicted at gunpoint from the Highland croft they rented and >> > forcibly placed on a boat at Aberdeen to be sent as indentured labour to >> > America. >> >> Interesting. Are you saying there was __white slavery__ in America? > > Pretty much. although indentured labour was supposed to be paid, and to > terminate upon completion of the debt obligation, in many cases it was > contrived in such a way that it was a life sentence. The main > distinctions between it and true slavery were that 1) children weren't > the property of the employer, to sell out from their parents, and 2) if > a labourer escaped, and got far enough away, he/she could blend in with > the white population and disappear. In fact, I rather suspect the > primary reason for using african slaves was the convenient skin marker > that made it impossible for the labour to ever be free of pursuit. > > See also the "home children" of Canada, shipped out from England, who > were child slave labour, provided with only room and board, and confined > to work, usually as farm labour, for their "guardians" til they were 18. > Some lucked out and were treated as well as the guardians' own children > might have been, but others suffered horrendous conditions, only to > be turned out on the streets malnourished and destitute upon reaching > adulthood. > >> Methinks the MacGregors would have had the option to return to Europe >> soon. And before being evicted, they would have had the option to get >> rich. ;-} > > I imagine Malcolm can set you straight here, but the answer is generally > no. Getting back to europe was pretty much out of the question, but > making a new life in the new world and having success, was a possibility > if not for the labourers, then at least for their children. That is, > if they survived long enough... > > Another very interesting story along these lines is the saga of the > crofters who were subject of rescue attempts by Lord Selkirk, who tried > to provide them with homesteading land in southern Manitoba, in the very > early years of the 19th century, when there was no overland route from > the east coast, and the ships were to deliver 1000 settlers via > Churchill in Hudson's Bay. The many attempts by fur-trading companies, > principally the Northwest Company, to thwart his rescue plans on two > continents, including fraud, bribery, intimidation, and finally murder > by wholesale massacre with a mercenary militia, make a very eye-opening > story of the brutality of life two centuries ago. > > -Pete > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework Keith Hudson, Saltford, England _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework Keith Hudson, Saltford, England ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
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