Keith, there was no milk prior to European invasion and the Osage were over six feet tall. The Sioux and Osage were/are tall had shoulders that looked like human buffalo. Still do. As for your comment about Asians, it could just as well have been about Jews who were also small when they came here. I've seen Chinese in my building that are over six feet tall. My Jewish adopted grandson is 12 and is six feet tall. My wife's nephew was 6'2" when he was 13 and weighed 220 lbs. They live in Tennessee. His parents were stocky but normal height. My grandson's father is six feet and skinny, mother is 5'4". Something is going on.
REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Keith Hudson Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 4:09 AM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION; pete Subject: Re: [Futurework] Epigenesis -- was Indian prejudice At 00:57 07/11/2010 -0700, Pete Vincent wrote (in a pleasant non-aggressive way): On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Keith Hudson wrote: Wherever intensive manual agriculture was practised around the world, > the nutritionally poor diet (carbohydrate-rich, protein-poor) resulted in > short and underweight individuals compared with man in Neolithic times. This > was due to epigenetic effects on the normal developmental genes in the > embryo. When diets began to improve during industrial times -- from about 200 > years ago in Europe -- epigenetic control began relaxing in stages and, > within about five or six generations, the size and weight of babies improved > each generation -- and, of course, in the adult. In the UK, for example, > upper middle-class individuals had recovered full Neolithic size and weight > about three generations ago while most of the population are only just about > reaching it now. (Americans got there sooner. Even as late as the 1940s when > American soldiers were arriving in England preparatory to the invasion of > Germany-occupied Europe, it was noticed that on average they were several > inches taller and many pounds heavier than English soldiers.) The full > recovery of normal weight and size appears to take about five or six > generations of a nutritionally adequate diet -- each new generation stepping > upwards, as it were, (roughly a gain of about a quarter-pound in birth weight > each successive generation). The same effect is now occurring in parts of > Asia because they are now weaning themselves away from an almost exclusively > rice/millet/wheat diet. The Japanese are still about two generations away > from full epigenetic recovery while other Asians such as the Vietnamese or > the Chinese are still distinctly small and are still several generations away > from full Neolithic stature. (The Dalits of India are still probably a couple > of centuries away from full stature -- if indeed, they ever receive an > adequate diet.) > I'm afraid this doesn't quite work. I believe the real reason for north americans being larger is the large amount of dairy they consume, but I'm not sure. Yes, this must be significant. This is probably one of the main reasons why the American soldiers who came to England in the 1940s were so much taller and heavier than the English soldiers. But there was meat also. (I remember that in the '50s [the UK still being on war-time food rationing] when my [apparent] girlfriend took me to a party at an American airbase in Yorkshire, I could hardly believe the buffet food that was laid out there -- particularly all the different sorts of meats. [It turned out that my girlfriend really fancied an American officer -- I never saw her again after the party! Gosh, she was lovely! Her name was Marion. I'll never forget her.] ) At any rate, the problem with your thesis It's not my thesis. It's just that I try to keep up-to-date with genetics. The fact of epigenesis, particularly as it affects body size (but much else besides), is now becoming well-established in biology. (It's only really been adequately demonstrated since the Human Genome Project in 2003, so there are still some old-diehards around.) We have about 20,000 genes and epigenetic control over them produces at least 100,000 two- or three-gene coalitions which affect our physiology and behaviour. Their subtleties and predispositions will probably take many decades to identify -- if at all to identify fully because new epigenetic settings can take place at any time. is that both europeans and asians arriving in north america, who adopt the north american diet, have children who grow to the north american norm, in the first generation; I would be deeply interested in any evidence that supports your statement. If a typically small-sized Asian couple arrive in America their children will still be small, no matter how adequate their diet. If they have a son, however, then his epigenetic settings will adjust slightly in the years before puberty [in the pre-sperm DNA machinery in his testes] and, even if he marries an underweight Asian girl, he will have children who will, on average, be taller and heavier than his wife and parents. (Changes in epigenetic settings only take place in boys in the years before puberty. They don't occur in girls because they are born with all the ['finalized'] eggs they will ever use in their lifetime. On the other hand, boys only produce [epigenetically adjusted] sperm after puberty. However, when he becomes a parent in due course his epigenetic changes are inherited by his girl offspring as well as boys.) Keith and this has been true for the last half century, which is the period in which north america has been well stocked with nutritious food. (I'll leave aside the subject of the rise of junk food, and the current decline in nutritional habits.) -Pete _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework Keith Hudson, Saltford, England
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