The problem for me is the process. What kind of moral process is involved in the people who do this? What are the elements of their whole being that fit together to allow them to make decisions that are so far reaching without liability responsibility?
REH -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Stennett Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 7:20 PM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] Vanishing interstices From what I understand, it's not just cattle that is exposed to genetically modified corn (and other substances). I've been told that all products that contain corn in the US will have at least some GM corn. That's because of inadvertent cross-pollination, lack of labeling, mixing of GM and non-GM products in the processing plants, etc. Disturbing and depressing. Barry On Aug 6, 2011, at 6:37 PM, Ray Harrell wrote: > http://vimeo.com/22416828 > > Ask a cow. > > When I was playing, as a child, at my Grandma's in Cromwell, > Oklahoma in > the middle of the oil fields we always wondered where the animals > were. > Right in the middle of streams and trees there were no animals > except for > horned toads. Same thing in Picher until the mines shut down and > everything was wonderful. The animals, even the deer and the > beavers, came > back until the mines filled with water saturated with heavy metals > and then > the water erupted from the drill holes first in a wealthy ranchers > field > with Arabian horses. It ate the hair right off of the horses > legs. They > all had to be put down. The whole herd. > > The positive stories about technology, modified foods, fracking, > safety etc. > are almost 100% counter to my experience with American business and > science. > When something smells from an inadequate system, the first thing > that is > said in the market is that it is some individual's fault who did it > wrong. > Very rarely do they blame the system and try to redesign it in a more > logical fashion. The problem, of course, is always the costs of > doing and > rarely the bureaucracy that is blamed. Another version of blame the > people rather than the design. > > There are studies about the expanding catastrophes and deaths world > wide as > large scale systems, poorly designed malfunction and kill literally > millions > of people and go unreported except in some UN Journals and in the > insurance > business which is going broke from the acceleration. All of these > studies > were before Uganda and now Yemen and Somalia. > > The problem is under conceptualization of large scale system's > design and > the inadequate comparison of small systems, like household budgets, > to large > scale systems like National Defense umbrellas, etc.. Everyday I see > comparisons between things that have poorly thought out connections > between > parallel systems. The Scale, Meaning, Relational Logic and the > overall > quality of thinking would never work in a project that demands high > quality > of product. Can you imagine comparing a household budget's needs to > CERN? > Yes there are parallels but frankly the Larynx is not the Anus even > though > both are sphincters. There are no operatic arias coming out of a > whale's > blowhole no matter how much money Disney spends to make you believe > it a > possibility. The lack of intelligent generic large scale cultural > design in > the West is probably going to destroy us. > > Instead we, since the 18th century have been given the economic > rules of the > crap table called the "Invisible Hand" which is just old European > forestry > methods applied to the marketplace. Another system's failure. > Where are > the forests of Tuscany today? What about the rest of Europe? Well, > they > have now been regulated and turned into farms unless they are > leisure parks > for the people. (Would that we did that to Wall Street.) > > What is ignored is that capitalism is essentially a game system that > is > amoral except for cash agreements. And even then, economists long > for the > economics of the criminal. In the west it is supposed to be > religion, the > arts, governmental laws and to some degree psychological science that > regulates commerce and makes it humane. It's supposed to provide the > balance to the Creativity of Greed and protect the helpless from the > predatory nature of commerce and large scale commercial systems. > > Surprisingly Ayn Rand did pose one serious question to which her > followers > promptly ignored her. I think that question justified both Milton > Friedman > and Alan Greenspan's bow to her. That question is: "Is short term > selfishness genuine selfishness?" (John Galt) What was not > realized was > that she was looking not at an order in time or a spacial hierarchy > but at > SCALE in systems. Small scale systems, (short term), large scale > systems > i.e. (long term.) The manufacture of toothpicks as a model for > automobile > construction. > > And so we are now here with a malfunction based upon a systemic flaw > in > relational logic. Rand, von Mises, von Hayek are all dead and the > sum of > their theories are, like Marx, consigned to the results of the > immature > thinking of their followers like Ron and Rand Paul and the other so > called > "Libertarians." The culture bound thought of the Soviets has > disappeared > and something new is arising from the communist' school's population > of > Russia. And then there's China with its thousands of years of serious > culture and design. China may be the only place on earth mature > enough to > take Marx's ideas and make them work. Our immature ideologues > reduce a > serious question to a series of ideological rules that don't answer > the > question and create havoc for political gain. > > Are Rand, Marx, von Mises and von Hayek responsible now that they > are dead? > In my culture they are. Teachers have to be better than mere > speculative > authors. That's why I hold Jesus responsible for the death of our > cultures > and 100 million people and counting, here as well as for the Cathars > and the > Inquisition in Europe. To avoid that historic responsibility and the > oppression of the current descendants for it, Cherokee scholars tend > to burn > their unused and un-discussed manuscripts of philosophy, religion > and even > music. Use it while they are alive or its burned. > > REH > > > PS. I have two questions for everyone whose writing on this list. > 1. How many of you are retired? > 2. How many of you have good retirement incomes or at least adequate > retirement incomes? > > I notice that people like myself who work full time don't write > much. I > seem to be the exception. I also notice that when I say something > like the > relationship of "Game Theory" to Fracking, it gets "fracking" > ignored. :>)) > If we are to discuss seriously the problems of robotics, automation, > unemployment and the systems that create them and how to design a > way out of > that then we need to think better. > > The simple mistakes of the current political system and the way that > America, and I guess Canada gets "fracked" by Monsanto and others when > Europe doesn't, (see the video) has simply to do with the strategic > thinking > of political parties that come up with a line and adhere to it no > matter how > absurd it happens to be. The Strategic thinking of the elite > business > parties is not new. I worked in conferences that the Oklahoma GOP > gave in > the 1960s and they basically said the same kinds of tactics that > they apply > today to Obama. > > It has succeeded brilliantly, gotten them what they wanted, raised the > population level through anti-abortion and continued the abuse of > natural > resources for short term class gain. The place was Camp Takatoka > on Lake > Fort Gibson in 1964 and the camp personal were appalled at what they > heard > the GOP politicians advocating. I was not because I had heard it > before > from the owners of the mining companies and I had a Cherokee Elder > that was > a conservative Republican who taught me how they think. She also > taught me > how to live and survive in conservative Tulsa, Oklahoma, then called > the > "Oil Capital of the World" and at the principle Petroleum Engineering > School in America, the University of Tulsa. Yes they had a music > school. > It too had the musical system's principles of engineering called > Shenkarian > Analysis and Form and Analysis. I guess that make me a musical > engineer > (smile). > > Really I don't understand how someone could repost what I had posted > in the > first place as an answer to what I posted. > > Secondly I don't see where anyone said anything that had to do with > my point > which was the underlying thinking that made Fracking OK. Cost > Effectiveness > and Winner take all Game Theory. > > Thirdly I will tell you about a great butcher from Panzano named > Darius. (I > may have already but let me do it again from another perspective.) > We had > a seven course meat meal that was unbelievable. The key was > proportion and > we all left satisfied but not stuffed. The main course was a > wonderful > beef roast. > > This video http://vimeo.com/22416828 > > reminds me why we don't get good beef roasts here but Europe does. > The > last time I had a great beef roast, until Darius, was in 1960 when > my mother > cooked it. She used to cook one every Sunday and we waited the > whole week > for that amazingly succulent Kansas corn-fed meat. I thought it > was just > my memory and idealization until I tasted Darius's main course which > was > frugal but amazing. Just like mom's. No genetically modified, > engineer > approved corn in Europe as there wasn't in Kansas in 1960. > > But we are now in the hands not of a Master Butcher but of butchering > personalities who will do anything to win and for a buck. Answer > that! Is > all of that wonderful Kansas beef now force-fed by Monsanto? I > would argue > that interstices aren't vanishing, just being of less quality and > symmetry > as a result of poor large scale cultural system's design and the total > ignorance of the Science and especially the Art of the thing. How > is that > "good" engineering? How long can we have CERN with such small scale > thinking abroad in the world? Will it go the way of the New York > City > Opera? > > REH > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Arthur > Cordell > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 12:20 PM > To: [email protected]; 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, > EDUCATION' > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Vanishing interstices > > Below is an exerpt from a talk that I gave a long time ago. > Probably 20 > years ago. It is about technology and community and deals with the > topic > raised. > > ============================================== > > > It is by now a cliche to say that information technologies are > changing the > way we work, play, learn--live our lives. > Like electricity, the automobile and the steam engine, information > technology is radically altering our economy. > > In the same way that the early assembly line and automation involved > the > substitution of machines for people we now see a substitution of > computer-based machines for people in the service sector. Automating > service > delivery carries with it benefits and costs. The benefits include > speed and > access, as well as new products and services. The costs include a > change in > our local communities. > > As we create new applications for information technology we are at > the same > time creating new ways of social interaction. There is a subtle but > important interaction between technology and society. The type of > technology developed and the way in which it is used affects the way > Canadians interact with each other. Information technology is > changing our > communities. > > Computer networks such as Internet and Freenet are creating new > communities > that are global, rapidly evolving and range from the most exotic > subject > areas to the chit-chat of everyday life. While the wonder of a global > community is evolving, our local community--the one inhabited by > everyday > people--is slowly but surely changing. > > > Two or three years ago McDonald's adopted the slogan, "At McDonald's > we do > it all for you." We have heard this jingle so many times we rarely > pause to > reflect on what it really means. > > > Consider what happens when you go to McDonald's. > > In the act of purchasing, the sale is punched into a computer > terminal which > keeps track of sales, inventory, and worker performance. We pick up > the > food at a counter, pick up straws, napkins, etc., we consume the > food and > dutifully throw away the refuse. Finally, we replace the tray in a > stack of > used trays. . > > So, in reality, at McDonald's we do it all for them! > > The banks would also like us to do it all for them. The success of > automatic teller machines, and soon, home banking, is leading to a > computerized marketplace where people interact with machines. > > We are accustomed to doing it all for them at supermarkets. We take > the > product off the shelf and place it on the checkout stand. Some > markets > would have us bag our own groceries. > Soon, purchasers in supermarkets will be offered the option of > 'self-service.' They will be able to wave the laser scanner over > the bar > codes that are found on virtually every item in the store. And if > doing this > saves time, harried consumers might find it attractive. > > As each new labour saving device is installed we applaud the time > saved and > increased productivity brought by the technology. Rarely, if ever, > do we > reflect on how the technology is changing our local communities. > > > As more and more consumers are 'doing it all for them,' workers are > displaced and communities are changed. Activities that used to be > undertaken > by service station attendants, bank workers, restaurant owners, full > service > supermarkets, etc., have disappeared. The new community without > people is > one with "Neighbourhood Watch." It's one that hires security guards. > Productivity advances in one area lead to rising costs in another: the > relationship between the decline of service workers and the rise in > security > guards tells one story of our changing communities. > > Inexpensive computing power has made possible the self-serve gas > station. > Here we pump our own gas, and pass money or a charge card to someone > behind > a bullet-proof glass. By substituting our labour for an attendant > we have > displaced workers and, according the automobile association, the > number of > automobile breakdowns has increased. Service station attendants > used to > check many items under the hood; harried consumers today are too > busy or too > uninformed. Here too productivity gains in one area lead to > increased costs > in another. > > There is a continuing substitution of machines for service workers > who used > to populate communities. Service station attendants, bank tellers, > operators of local restaurants, etc., have all given way, thanks to > information technology, to a situation where citizens go about with > credit > or debit card in hand and accomplish their many errands by > interacting with > computer-based machines. What takes place is the transaction > itself--no > more 'small talk', no more extra services, no more extra anything. > > > At the heart of a community, or a family or a nation is cross- > subsidization. > It's the equivalent of the mythical Boy Scout helping the 'little > old lady' > across the street; but can also be those transfer programs from the > richer > provinces to the less well off; or the many little things that > members of > families do for each other without maintaining too close an > accounting. > > Having people in place that pump gas, operate local restaurants, or > work in > banks means that--people being people--something else will happen > other than > the strict transaction of putting gas in the car or making a > deposit. Some > talk is exchanged, 'how's the weather' or 'how are you feeling' or > some > notice is made of one sort of the other. When the people are > replaced by > machines, when only the economic transaction itself takes place we > quickly > notice the loss. We notice that there were many extra benefits > associated > with having people deliver services. It is these benefits--this > cross-subsidization--that is lost with the continuing shift to > machines for > delivery of services. It is often these extra things that people > did 'for > nothing'--a smile, a hello, looking out on and for the community, > that now > have to be created or contracted for. > > When we remove service workers from our communities, we remove the > many > other things that were done as they were pumping gas, cashing our > checks, > and bagging our groceries. While doing their jobs they also engaged > in > small talk with clients, noticed people on the street. They were an > information source. They kept track of people. They noticed a lost > child, > a suspicious looking individual, a person who suddenly became ill > health. > They were the people who checked under the hood, provided special > services > for the elderly or infirm. They were a fundamental part of the > community. > With each deletion of an individual from the community not only is > there a > loss of income and spending power, there is also the loss of another > pair of > eyes and ears and heart--the loss of a person, which after all, is > the soul > of the community > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike > Spencer > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 2:47 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Futurework] Vanishing interstices > > > I wrote this to a friend but FW came into it as I wrote. It occurred > to me that it might not be very much OT here. I haven't much > re-edited it for FW except to obfuscate DG's name. DG is a digital > tech wizard, friend of a friend whom I've only met once long ago. > This exchange relates to a recent happenstance email encounter. > > --- > > Hi B -- > > Did you send my comment on his remark to [DG]? > > (Recap:) > > dg> As a race, we are about to give up the, shall we say, self > dg> sufficiency of what it was that got us here. There is so much to > dg> say, yet so much ambiguity in a future that a technologic positive > dg> feedback loop can bring us. Or maybe not just us. How would we > dg> know once we cross the threshold or singularity or whatever you > dg> want to call it? > > We approach the threshold as the Monstrous Blobs grow and exfoliate > and the vast space in which they float is gradually reduced to mere > interstices between them. We cross the threshold when the interstices > between the Monstrous Blobs become discontinuous. Regrettably, > neither > we, the motes of biomass in the interstices nor they, those within the > Monstrous Blobs, can have a sufficiently global view to determine just > when that has happened. > > I think it has already happened. Telecom infotech has hastened it. I > think I may have to write a whole rant on this. > > --- > [Later] > > I still haven't written the rant but I may yet. This is on topic to > the FutureWork mailing list I'm on, as well. > > Some of William Gibson's characters had this notion of "when it > changed". That cusp in Neuromancer was very science-fictiony. In the > Bridge trilogy, the change at the end of the last book was > science-fictiony, too. But a couple of guys with special abilities > grasped that it had "all changed" once before, agreed that it was some > time in 1911, that the death of Pierre Curie under the wheels of a > horse-drawn wagon in 1906 was somehow a trigger. When it all > changed.... > > My FutureWork pals haven't got the "when it all changed" notion but I > infer from their remarks (or short essays) that they intuit such a > thing. Candidate loci are Nixon's repeal of Breton Woods, Reagan's > firing of the air traffic controllers, repeal of Glass-Steagall under > Clinton and others. Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission is > the most recent one. > > If it has "all changed", one (or all) of those may have been triggers, > releasers, what you may call it, but "when it all changed" has to do > with the interstices. Too late at night to do a real rant now but > here's an example: > > Gas stations. > > Oil companies are Blobs, have been during my lifetime. But gas > stations were interstitial -- or at least an interface with the > interstitial. Really dumb guys could pump gas, do oil change and > lube, change tires. Smart guys with little education could be really > good mechanics. Guys of moderate or even mediocre abilities could run > a gas station biz. Ex-cons could work in gas stations. Gas stations, > certainly rural ones and even many urban ones, were social foci, > technology foci. All of this was, in a sense, infrastructure for > people who lived in the interstices. > > Now there are no gas stations under that rubric. There are self-serve > pumps, usually with an attached "convenience" store, wholly owned by a > Blob oil company and run by a franchisee who operates out of a ring > binder. Yes, there's a clerk or three but there's no pride, no > texture, no fabric to being a minwage clerk. I once worked for half a > year next to a genuine retard. He was a whiz grease man and took pride > in his work. He wouldn't have been able to do clerking right and > wouldn't have taken any pride in it if he had. > > So the oilco Blobs have squeezed together, squeezed one part of the > interstitial landscape almost out of existence. There are still a few > stand-alone repair shops, some as adjuncts to junk yards, but they're > now more or less isolated examples. This particular kind of interstix > has become a thinly distributed scattering of discontinuous cells. > This has all happened since I worked as a mechanic in Amherst [Mass.]. > > Just one example. If you think of gas stations as a paradigm, you can > spot other instances where interstices that once propagated social > fluid have been squeezed into discontinuous cells of relative stasis. > > Your words for the day. Send them to [DG] if you're inclined. > > -m > > > -- > Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~. > /V\ > [email protected] /( )\ > http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ^^-^^ > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
