Barry,

You can sleep tight. If it's any consolation, you have probably eaten a great deal of GM food already with no ill effects. When digested, modified genes break down into a standard set of amino acids just like normal genes. It doesn't affect the subsequent manufacture of your own bodily proteins in the slightest.

The only 'danger' of growing GM food is if it escapes farmers' supervision either by physical escape of seed or cross-pollination. This can cause imbalances in any natural ecological niches (such as exist in today's countryside). But, as plant collectors since Victorian times have been bringing back tens of thousands of exotic plants, such imbalances are nothing new.

Keith


At 00:19 08/08/2011, you wrote:
From what I understand, it's not just cattle that is exposed to
genetically modified corn (and other substances). I've been told that
all products that contain corn in the US will have at least some GM
corn. That's because of inadvertent cross-pollination, lack of
labeling, mixing of GM and non-GM products in the processing plants,
etc.

Disturbing and depressing.

Barry





On Aug 6, 2011, at 6:37 PM, Ray Harrell wrote:

http://vimeo.com/22416828

Ask a cow.

When I was playing, as a child,  at my Grandma's in Cromwell,
Oklahoma in
the middle of the oil fields we always wondered where the animals
were.
Right in the middle of streams and trees there were no animals
except for
horned toads.    Same thing in Picher until the mines shut down and
everything was wonderful.   The animals, even the deer and the
beavers, came
back until the mines filled with water saturated with heavy metals
and then
the water erupted from the drill holes first in a wealthy ranchers
field
with Arabian horses.   It ate the hair right off of the horses
legs.  They
all had to be put down.   The whole herd.

The positive stories about technology, modified foods, fracking,
safety etc.
are almost 100% counter to my experience with American business and
science.
When something smells from an inadequate system, the first thing
that is
said in the market is that it is some individual's fault who did it
wrong.
Very rarely do they blame the system and try to redesign it in a more
logical fashion.   The problem, of course, is always the costs of
doing and
rarely the bureaucracy  that is blamed.   Another version of blame the
people rather than the design.

There are studies about the expanding catastrophes and deaths world
wide as
large scale systems, poorly designed malfunction and kill literally
millions
of people and go unreported except in some UN Journals and in the
insurance
business which is going broke from the acceleration.   All of these
studies
were before Uganda and now Yemen and Somalia.

The problem is under conceptualization of large scale system's
design and
the inadequate comparison of small systems, like household budgets,
to large
scale systems like National Defense umbrellas, etc..    Everyday I see
comparisons between things that have poorly thought out connections
between
parallel systems.  The Scale, Meaning, Relational Logic and the
overall
quality of thinking would never work in a project that demands high
quality
of product.  Can you imagine comparing a household budget's needs to
CERN?
Yes there are parallels but frankly the Larynx is not the Anus even
though
both are sphincters.   There are no operatic arias coming out of a
whale's
blowhole no matter how much money Disney spends to make you believe
it a
possibility.  The lack of intelligent generic large scale cultural
design in
the West is probably going to destroy us.

Instead we, since the 18th century have been given the economic
rules of the
crap table called the "Invisible Hand" which is just old European
forestry
methods applied to the marketplace.   Another system's failure.
Where are
the forests of Tuscany today?  What about the rest of Europe?  Well,
they
have now been regulated and turned into farms unless they are
leisure parks
for the people.   (Would that we did that to Wall Street.)

What is ignored is that capitalism is essentially a game system that
is
amoral except for cash agreements.   And even then, economists long
for the
economics of the criminal.   In the west it is supposed to be
religion, the
arts, governmental laws and to some degree psychological science that
regulates commerce and makes it humane.  It's supposed to provide the
balance to the Creativity of Greed and protect the helpless from the
predatory nature of commerce and large scale commercial systems.

Surprisingly Ayn Rand did pose one serious question to which her
followers
promptly ignored her.   I think that question justified both Milton
Friedman
and Alan Greenspan's bow to her.   That question is:  "Is short term
selfishness genuine selfishness?"  (John Galt)  What was not
realized was
that she was looking not at an order in time or a spacial hierarchy
but at
SCALE in systems.   Small scale systems, (short term), large scale
systems
i.e. (long term.)  The manufacture of toothpicks as a model for
automobile
construction.

And so we are now here with a malfunction based upon a systemic flaw
in
relational logic.   Rand, von Mises, von Hayek are all dead and the
sum of
their theories are, like Marx, consigned to the results of the
immature
thinking of their followers like Ron and Rand Paul and the other so
called
"Libertarians."   The culture bound thought of the Soviets has
disappeared
and something new is arising from the communist' school's population
of
Russia.  And then there's China with its thousands of years of serious
culture and design.  China may be the only place on earth mature
enough to
take Marx's ideas and make them work.  Our immature ideologues
reduce a
serious question to a series of ideological rules that don't answer
the
question and create havoc for political gain.

Are Rand, Marx, von Mises and von Hayek responsible now that they
are dead?
In my culture they are.   Teachers have to be better than mere
speculative
authors.  That's why I hold Jesus responsible for the death of our
cultures
and 100 million people and counting, here as well as for the Cathars
and the
Inquisition in Europe.   To avoid that historic responsibility and the
oppression of the current descendants for it, Cherokee scholars tend
to burn
their unused and un-discussed manuscripts of philosophy, religion
and even
music.   Use it while they are alive or its burned.

REH


PS. I have two questions for everyone whose writing on this list.
1. How many of you are retired?
2. How many of you have good retirement incomes or at least adequate
retirement incomes?

I notice that people like myself who work full time don't write
much.   I
seem to be the exception.   I also notice that when I say something
like the
relationship of "Game Theory" to Fracking, it gets "fracking"
ignored. :>))
If we are to discuss seriously the problems of robotics, automation,
unemployment and the systems that create them and how to design a
way out of
that then we need to think better.

The simple mistakes of the current political system and the way that
America, and I guess Canada gets "fracked" by Monsanto and others when
Europe doesn't, (see the video) has simply to do with the strategic
thinking
of political parties that come up with a line and adhere to it no
matter how
absurd it happens to be.   The Strategic thinking of the elite
business
parties is not new.   I worked in conferences that the Oklahoma GOP
gave in
the 1960s and they basically said the same kinds of tactics that
they apply
today to Obama.

It has succeeded brilliantly, gotten them what they wanted, raised the
population level through anti-abortion and continued the abuse of
natural
resources for short term class gain.   The place was Camp Takatoka
on Lake
Fort Gibson in 1964 and the camp personal were appalled at what they
heard
the GOP politicians advocating.   I was not because I had heard it
before
from the owners of the mining companies and I had a Cherokee Elder
that was
a conservative Republican who taught me how they think.  She also
taught me
how to live and survive in conservative Tulsa, Oklahoma, then called
the
"Oil Capital of the World"  and at the principle Petroleum Engineering
School in America, the University of Tulsa.   Yes they had a music
school.
It too had the musical system's principles of engineering called
Shenkarian
Analysis and Form and Analysis.   I guess that make me a musical
engineer
(smile).

Really I don't understand how someone could repost what I had posted
in the
first place as an answer to what I posted.

Secondly I don't see where anyone said anything that had to do with
my point
which was the underlying thinking that made Fracking OK.  Cost
Effectiveness
and Winner take all Game Theory.

Thirdly I will tell you about a great butcher from Panzano named
Darius. (I
may have already but let me do it again from another perspective.)
We had
a seven course meat meal that was unbelievable.  The key was
proportion and
we all left satisfied but not stuffed.   The main course was a
wonderful
beef roast.

This video  http://vimeo.com/22416828

reminds me why we don't get good beef roasts here but Europe does.
The
last time I had a great beef roast, until Darius, was in 1960 when
my mother
cooked it.   She used to cook one every Sunday and we waited the
whole week
for that amazingly succulent Kansas corn-fed meat.   I thought it
was just
my memory and idealization until I tasted Darius's main course which
was
frugal but amazing.  Just like mom's.  No genetically modified,
engineer
approved corn in Europe as there wasn't in Kansas in 1960.

But we are now in the hands not of a Master Butcher but of butchering
personalities who will do anything to win and for a buck.   Answer
that!  Is
all of that wonderful Kansas beef now force-fed by Monsanto?  I
would argue
that interstices aren't vanishing, just being of less quality and
symmetry
as a result of poor large scale cultural system's design and the total
ignorance of the Science and especially the Art of the thing.  How
is that
"good" engineering?   How long can we have CERN with such small scale
thinking abroad in the world?   Will it go the way of the New York
City
Opera?

REH




-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Arthur
Cordell
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 12:20 PM
To: [email protected]; 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION,
EDUCATION'
Subject: Re: [Futurework] Vanishing interstices

Below is an exerpt from a talk that I gave a long time ago.
Probably 20
years ago.  It is about technology and community and deals with the
topic
raised.

==============================================


It is by now a cliche to say that information technologies are
changing the
way we work, play, learn--live our lives.
Like electricity, the automobile and the steam engine, information
technology is radically altering our economy.

In the same way that the early assembly line and automation involved
the
substitution of machines for people we now see a substitution of
computer-based machines for people in the service sector. Automating
service
delivery carries with it benefits and costs.  The benefits include
speed and
access, as well as new products and services.  The costs include a
change in
our local communities.

As we create new applications for information technology we are at
the same
time creating new ways of social interaction.  There is a subtle but
important interaction between technology and society.  The type of
technology developed and the way in which it is used affects the way
Canadians interact with each other.  Information technology is
changing our
communities.

Computer networks such as Internet and Freenet are creating new
communities
that are global, rapidly evolving and range from the most exotic
subject
areas to the chit-chat of everyday life.  While the wonder of a global
community is evolving, our local community--the one inhabited by
everyday
people--is slowly but surely changing.


Two or three years ago McDonald's adopted the slogan, "At McDonald's
we do
it all for you."  We have heard this jingle so many times we rarely
pause to
reflect on what it really means.


Consider what happens when you go to McDonald's.

In the act of purchasing, the sale is punched into a computer
terminal which
keeps track of sales, inventory, and worker performance.  We pick up
the
food at a counter, pick up straws, napkins, etc., we consume the
food and
dutifully throw away the refuse.  Finally, we replace the tray in a
stack of
used trays.  .

So, in reality, at McDonald's we do it all for them!

The banks would also like us to do it all for them.  The success of
automatic teller machines, and soon, home banking, is leading to a
computerized marketplace where people interact with machines.

We are accustomed to doing it all for them at supermarkets.  We take
the
product off the shelf and place it on the checkout stand.  Some
markets
would have us bag our own groceries.
Soon, purchasers in supermarkets will be offered the option of
'self-service.'  They will be able to wave the laser scanner over
the bar
codes that are found on virtually every item in the store. And if
doing this
saves time, harried consumers might find it attractive.

As each new labour saving device is installed we applaud the time
saved and
increased productivity brought by the technology.  Rarely, if ever,
do we
reflect on how the technology is changing our local communities.


As more and more consumers are 'doing it all for them,' workers are
displaced and communities are changed. Activities that used to be
undertaken
by service station attendants, bank workers, restaurant owners, full
service
supermarkets, etc., have disappeared.  The new community without
people is
one with  "Neighbourhood Watch."  It's one that hires security guards.
Productivity advances in one area lead to rising costs in another: the
relationship between the decline of service workers and the rise in
security
guards tells one story of our changing communities.

Inexpensive computing power has made possible the self-serve gas
station.
Here we pump our own gas, and pass money or a charge card to someone
behind
a bullet-proof glass.  By substituting our labour for an attendant
we have
displaced workers and, according the automobile association, the
number of
automobile breakdowns has increased.  Service station attendants
used to
check many items under the hood; harried consumers today are too
busy or too
uninformed.  Here too productivity gains in one area lead to
increased costs
in another.

There is a continuing substitution of machines for service workers
who used
to populate communities.  Service station attendants, bank tellers,
operators of local restaurants, etc., have all given way, thanks to
information technology, to a situation where citizens go about with
credit
or debit card in hand and accomplish their many errands by
interacting with
computer-based machines.  What takes place is the transaction
itself--no
more 'small talk', no more extra services, no more extra anything.


At the heart of a community, or a family or a nation is cross- subsidization.
It's the equivalent of the mythical Boy Scout helping the 'little
old lady'
across the street; but can also be those transfer programs from the
richer
provinces to the less well off; or the many little things that
members of
families do for each other without maintaining too close an
accounting.

Having people in place that pump gas, operate local restaurants, or
work in
banks means that--people being people--something else will happen
other than
the strict transaction of putting gas in the car or making a
deposit.  Some
talk is exchanged, 'how's the weather' or 'how are you feeling' or
some
notice is made of one sort of the other.  When the people are
replaced by
machines, when only the economic transaction itself takes place we
quickly
notice the loss.  We notice that there were many extra benefits
associated
with having people deliver services.  It is these benefits--this
cross-subsidization--that is lost with the continuing shift to
machines for
delivery of services.  It is often these extra things that people
did 'for
nothing'--a smile, a hello, looking out on and for the community,
that now
have to be created or contracted for.

When we remove service workers from our communities, we remove the
many
other things that were done as they were pumping gas, cashing our
checks,
and bagging our groceries.  While doing their jobs they also engaged
in
small talk with clients, noticed people on the street.  They were an
information source.  They kept track of people.  They noticed a lost
child,
a suspicious looking individual, a person who suddenly became ill
health.
They were the people who checked under the hood, provided special
services
for the elderly or infirm.  They were a fundamental part of the
community.
With each deletion of an individual from the community not only is
there a
loss of income and spending power, there is also the loss of another
pair of
eyes and ears and heart--the loss of a person, which after all, is
the soul
of the community



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike
Spencer
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 2:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Futurework] Vanishing interstices


I wrote this to a friend but FW came into it as I wrote.  It occurred
to me that it might not be very much OT here.  I haven't much
re-edited it for FW except to obfuscate DG's name.  DG is a digital
tech wizard, friend of a friend whom I've only met once long ago.
This exchange relates to a recent happenstance email encounter.

---

Hi B --

Did you send my comment on his remark to [DG]?

(Recap:)

dg> As a race, we are about to give up the, shall we say, self
dg> sufficiency of what it was that got us here.  There is so much to
dg> say, yet so much ambiguity in a future that a technologic positive
dg> feedback loop can bring us.  Or maybe not just us.  How would we
dg> know once we cross the threshold or singularity or whatever you
dg> want to call it?

We approach the threshold as the Monstrous Blobs grow and exfoliate
and the vast space in which they float is gradually reduced to mere
interstices between them.  We cross the threshold when the interstices
between the Monstrous Blobs become discontinuous.  Regrettably,
neither
we, the motes of biomass in the interstices nor they, those within the
Monstrous Blobs, can have a sufficiently global view to determine just
when that has happened.

I think it has already happened.  Telecom infotech has hastened it.  I
think I may have to write a whole rant on this.

---
[Later]

I still haven't written the rant but I may yet.  This is on topic to
the FutureWork mailing list I'm  on, as well.

Some of William Gibson's characters had this notion of "when it
changed".  That cusp in Neuromancer was very science-fictiony.  In the
Bridge trilogy, the change at the end of the last book was
science-fictiony, too.  But a couple of guys with special abilities
grasped that it had "all changed" once before, agreed that it was some
time in 1911, that the death of Pierre Curie under the wheels of a
horse-drawn wagon in 1906 was somehow a trigger.  When it all
changed....

My FutureWork pals haven't got the "when it all changed" notion but I
infer from their remarks (or short essays) that they intuit such a
thing.  Candidate loci are Nixon's repeal of Breton Woods, Reagan's
firing of the air traffic controllers, repeal of Glass-Steagall under
Clinton and others.  Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission is
the most recent one.

If it has "all changed", one (or all) of those may have been triggers,
releasers, what you may call it, but "when it all changed"  has to do
with the interstices.  Too late at night to do a real rant now but
here's an example:

Gas stations.

Oil companies are Blobs, have been during my lifetime.  But gas
stations were interstitial -- or at least an interface with the
interstitial.  Really dumb guys could pump gas, do oil change and
lube, change tires.  Smart guys with little education could be really
good mechanics.  Guys of moderate or even mediocre abilities could run
a gas station biz. Ex-cons could work in gas stations. Gas stations,
certainly rural ones and even many urban ones, were social foci,
technology foci.  All of this was, in a sense, infrastructure for
people who lived in the interstices.

Now there are no gas stations under that rubric.  There are self-serve
pumps, usually with an attached "convenience" store, wholly owned by a
Blob oil company and run by a franchisee who operates out of a ring
binder.  Yes, there's a clerk or three but there's no pride, no
texture, no fabric to being a minwage clerk. I once worked for half a
year next to a genuine retard. He was a whiz grease man and took pride
in his work.  He wouldn't have been able to do clerking right and
wouldn't have taken any pride in it if he had.

So the oilco Blobs have squeezed together, squeezed one part of the
interstitial landscape almost out of existence.  There are still a few
stand-alone repair shops, some as adjuncts to junk yards, but they're
now more or less isolated examples.  This particular kind of interstix
has become a thinly distributed scattering of discontinuous cells.
This has all happened since I worked as a mechanic in Amherst [Mass.].

Just one example.  If you think of gas stations as a paradigm, you can
spot other instances where interstices that once propagated social
fluid have been squeezed into discontinuous cells of relative stasis.

Your words for the day.  Send them to [DG] if you're inclined.

-m


--
Michael Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada       .~.
                                                          /V\
[email protected]                                     /( )\
http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/                        ^^-^^
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Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/2011/08/
   
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