I had read somewhere from an earlier scholarly work on ancient Hindu
writings (can't place the name - must have been one of the things I lost
on the last computer melt-down) that the ancient theological
philosophies did recognise the caste system as such but also recognised
the differing levels of society and skin colour (yes very present even
then as a method of discrimination) and so suggested each higher level
raise up (during their present life spans) those born into the immediate
lower caste; to teach and care for such until an understanding and
proper footing in the next rung up the ladder (so-to-speak) was
accomplished at which time they were allowed to live their lives in the
new caste with the understanding of and honouring of that level in the
scheme of lives (castes) that one must live prior to ascension
(Nirvana). This was one of the tests and requirements of the higher
orders to undertake for their own ascension to a higher level or to
finally reach Nirvana if they were in the Brahmin caste themselves.
This was already corrupted by the time of the Mughal conquests in the
mid 1500's, i.e. the idea that you live and die in your caste and maybe
(if you lived properly in your place in the society) you may get the
chance to raise to a higher level in the next life on Earth. Some of the
Mughal rulers had attempted to ease this attitude and introduce a more
egalitarian society. Unfortunately this was only possible in a few of
the provinces ruled and the caste system maintained a grip on power and
wealth for those in the upper ranks throughout the other provinces.
And I seem to remember the caste system is at least 2500 or so years old
(likely older) as offered by the Mahabharata.
Darryl
On 03/05/2012 1:32 AM, Keith Hudson wrote:
At 05:26 03/05/2012, Ray wrote:
Was the Indian caste system really a result of the British Empire?
No, of course not. (The book description on Amazon cannot possibly be
an accurate summary of the book but is tendentious -- written by a
neo-Marxist I suspect. The author of the book must be hopping mad.)
The Hindu caste system had existed for at least 2,000 years before the
East India Company arrived in India. The British administrators took
little notice of the Hindus and the first generation or so actually
married fairly freely into the upper layers of the Mogul (Muslim)
minority class (which had the power -- largely left alone so long as
the Company could get on with exploiting the masses.) Like all
societies, the Muslims certainly had a ranking system but it was quite
exiguous as compared with the enormously demarcated Hindu caste system
with savage punishments for infringements* and which had evolved over
many centuries long before the Mogul conquests.
(*which continue)
Keith
In Acemoglu and Robinson's new book "How Nation's Fail" a lot of
balloons are exploded in the myths about nations and cultures and
prosperity. Has this book been brought up on this list? Did
Keith mention it? I seem to remember it but I don't understand
the current post's generalizations about other cultures and the
future.
The following came up in a Cherokee men's breakfast at the Cafe
Luxembourg this morning. A young man brought up the issue of
caste in Indian Society and spoke of a book that his father, an
elder, had sent for him to read on the phenomenon of caste in
India. The father is a translator of Asian poetry and an
international expert on the mathematics of string figures. He
has a new exhibit of his string sculptures opening this week in
France. His son is an urban planner and a computer
professional. I thought about this post and its description of
various cultures and was interested in how the New Cambridge
History of India blames the English attitudes in governing for the
hardening of the caste lines that did not exist before the invasion
and the takeover of Indian society by the English. Might the
hardening described in the brains of children actually be a
cultural bias? Just a thought Keith. This book describes the
hardening of the caste lines as a result of the British story about
class and it's implacability.
This is the description of the book from Amazon.
The phenomenon of caste has probably aroused more controversy than
any other aspect of Indian life. This volume explores the emergence
of ideas and practices which gave rise to the so-called
'caste-society'. Using an historical and anthropological approach,
the author frames her analysis in the context of India's economic
and social order, interpreting caste as a contingent and variable
response to changes in India's political landscape through the
colonial conquest. The book's wide-ranging analysis offers one of
the most powerful statements ever written on caste in South Asia.
Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century to
the Modern Age (The New Cambridge History of India) by Susan Bayly
REH
*From:* [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Keith
Hudson
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 02, 2012 5:19 AM
*To:* RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, , EDUCATION
*Subject:* [Futurework] Why the Dalai Lama will win
The only reason so far for the success of China is that it has copied
all the consumer products that have been invented in the West and as
much of the latest technology as it can lay its hands on. However,
since 1901, when Nobel prizes were instituted (and also when all the
technologies and scientific ideas of the West were almost fully
available to China), the country has won only 9 scientific prizes
whereas America, Germany and the UK have won over 320 between them.
Unless China were to radicalize its highly authoritarian education
system, which squeezes out the creativity of its children from their
earliest years, then it's unlikely to win more than a dozen more
scientific prizes in the next century (except, of course, for the
rapidly increasing number of Chinese scientists who will have been
taught in Western schools and who dare to think laterally because
they have absorbed the non-Confucian culture).
In balance of payments terms, China is going to be successful for a
long time yet. It will need another 20 years or so to bring its
coastline population of 600 million up to the average standard of
living of the West (or as we 'enjoyed' it prior to 2008). It will
take another 30 or so years for China to bring the rest of its 700
million rural population up to scratch even if all goes well with
sufficient available world resources (in competition against the
resource requirements of at least 2 billion in India, Brazil and
Indonesia).
I cannot see the second phase occurring in China because the major
cities of the coastline will probably wrench their way out of
centralized control and become largely independent city-states as,
indeed, Hong Kong has largely remained since the British released
their (non-democratic) control in 1997. The new provinces will not
only monopolize the production of profitable exports but also the
resources that are imported. Like the 80-class (that is, inadequately
educated majority) of the Western countries, which is now
increasingly dependent on state welfare benefits, the poor of the
rural interior of China will, quite simply, not replenish themselves
in sufficient numbers and will largely die out.
What will be the future of the 20-class (that is, the adequately
educated and connected class) of the West? More specifically, what
will be the future of the 20-class in America, Germany and the UK?
Together with a small number of exceptionally creative cultures such
as Finland, Israel, Singapore or Switzerland, this is where the
leading edge of research in neuroscience and genetics is to be found
and likely to be maintained in the coming decades. The reason for
this that both of these research areas are so complex that they
increasingly require high connectivities between specialists
researchers and large teams of researchers. Thus nascent ideas and
commercial development in these two growth sectors will not be
anywhere near as copiable as they have been hitherto in, say,
engineering, nor can key personnel be recruited as individuals.
But the 20-class of the West is also not replenishing its numbers
itself at present. Will it, too, decide to fade away voluntarily as
the increasingly impoverished 80-class has been doing for the past 30
years? Hardly. As the population falls away, and as immigration
resistance of the West intensifies in order not to share their
increasingly meagre welfare benefits, then the beauties and
attractiveness of the natural world will be all the more available.
And, as any parent knows, such enjoyment is greatly reinforced when
there are children to share them with. The 20-class is likely to
start having family sizes above two children in the coming years as
they survive the present recession in good heart. But even if the
20-class doesn't breed enough children, neuroscience and genetics can
help them specifically (in addition to their broader commercial
development).
Neuroscience tells us that large-scale rear-brain culling takes place
before puberty. Too much culling (because of a poor informational and
attention-ful family environment) is capable of blunting a child's
mind greatly by the age of 5 years-old and almost completely so by
the age of puberty. An inadequate brain is then largely irremediable.
Skills that haven't developed by then are never teachable from then
onwards to any high level. Also, genetics tells us that high
intelligence is not so much the product of a few special genes but
several hundred of them. High talent is more the product of DNA which
does not have too many sub-optimal genes, whether dominant or
recessive, rather than having anything unusual about it. Any
'ordinary' child, given a secure, affectionate upbringing with good
socializing and educational opportunities at a very young age, and
with good skill training to follow and a daily existence with
sufficient spare time to think can produce what we call 'genius' or
at least a 'brilliant' mind.
And how will the 20-class recruit the talented numbers they require
for continuation? It will do so in exactly the same way that the
Dalai Lama used to be recruited by the Buddhist monks of Tibet or the
Living Sun Goddess was (and continues to be) in Hindu Nepal. And if
you want to know how they were recruited without the modern benefits
of neuroscience and genetics, but fully consonant with them, please
write to me. I have gone on long enough this morning and breakfast calls.
Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com
<http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/>
Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com
<http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/>
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