http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Indian_caste_system
Interesting stuff. Things are never as simple as those who want to extract things, from one group to another, try to make them. They call them conquerors, warriors, missionaries, economists, business people but either way the only thing that matters is the death, disease and destruction that comes from their way of looking at things. REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of D & N Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 11:52 AM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] Why the Dalai Lama will win I had read somewhere from an earlier scholarly work on ancient Hindu writings (can't place the name - must have been one of the things I lost on the last computer melt-down) that the ancient theological philosophies did recognise the caste system as such but also recognised the differing levels of society and skin colour (yes very present even then as a method of discrimination) and so suggested each higher level raise up (during their present life spans) those born into the immediate lower caste; to teach and care for such until an understanding and proper footing in the next rung up the ladder (so-to-speak) was accomplished at which time they were allowed to live their lives in the new caste with the understanding of and honouring of that level in the scheme of lives (castes) that one must live prior to ascension (Nirvana). This was one of the tests and requirements of the higher orders to undertake for their own ascension to a higher level or to finally reach Nirvana if they were in the Brahmin caste themselves. This was already corrupted by the time of the Mughal conquests in the mid 1500's, i.e. the idea that you live and die in your caste and maybe (if you lived properly in your place in the society) you may get the chance to raise to a higher level in the next life on Earth. Some of the Mughal rulers had attempted to ease this attitude and introduce a more egalitarian society. Unfortunately this was only possible in a few of the provinces ruled and the caste system maintained a grip on power and wealth for those in the upper ranks throughout the other provinces. And I seem to remember the caste system is at least 2500 or so years old (likely older) as offered by the Mahabharata. Darryl On 03/05/2012 1:32 AM, Keith Hudson wrote: At 05:26 03/05/2012, Ray wrote: Was the Indian caste system really a result of the British Empire? No, of course not. (The book description on Amazon cannot possibly be an accurate summary of the book but is tendentious -- written by a neo-Marxist I suspect. The author of the book must be hopping mad.) The Hindu caste system had existed for at least 2,000 years before the East India Company arrived in India. The British administrators took little notice of the Hindus and the first generation or so actually married fairly freely into the upper layers of the Mogul (Muslim) minority class (which had the power -- largely left alone so long as the Company could get on with exploiting the masses.) Like all societies, the Muslims certainly had a ranking system but it was quite exiguous as compared with the enormously demarcated Hindu caste system with savage punishments for infringements* and which had evolved over many centuries long before the Mogul conquests. (*which continue) Keith In Acemoglu and Robinson's new book "How Nation's Fail" a lot of balloons are exploded in the myths about nations and cultures and prosperity. Has this book been brought up on this list? Did Keith mention it? I seem to remember it but I don't understand the current post's generalizations about other cultures and the future. The following came up in a Cherokee men's breakfast at the Cafe Luxembourg this morning. A young man brought up the issue of caste in Indian Society and spoke of a book that his father, an elder, had sent for him to read on the phenomenon of caste in India. The father is a translator of Asian poetry and an international expert on the mathematics of string figures. He has a new exhibit of his string sculptures opening this week in France. His son is an urban planner and a computer professional. I thought about this post and its description of various cultures and was interested in how the New Cambridge History of India blames the English attitudes in governing for the hardening of the caste lines that did not exist before the invasion and the takeover of Indian society by the English. Might the hardening described in the brains of children actually be a cultural bias? Just a thought Keith. This book describes the hardening of the caste lines as a result of the British story about class and it's implacability. This is the description of the book from Amazon. The phenomenon of caste has probably aroused more controversy than any other aspect of Indian life. This volume explores the emergence of ideas and practices which gave rise to the so-called 'caste-society'. Using an historical and anthropological approach, the author frames her analysis in the context of India's economic and social order, interpreting caste as a contingent and variable response to changes in India's political landscape through the colonial conquest. The book's wide-ranging analysis offers one of the most powerful statements ever written on caste in South Asia. Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century to the Modern Age (The New Cambridge History of India) by Susan Bayly REH From: [email protected] [ mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ] On Behalf Of Keith Hudson Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 5:19 AM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, , EDUCATION Subject: [Futurework] Why the Dalai Lama will win The only reason so far for the success of China is that it has copied all the consumer products that have been invented in the West and as much of the latest technology as it can lay its hands on. However, since 1901, when Nobel prizes were instituted (and also when all the technologies and scientific ideas of the West were almost fully available to China), the country has won only 9 scientific prizes whereas America, Germany and the UK have won over 320 between them. Unless China were to radicalize its highly authoritarian education system, which squeezes out the creativity of its children from their earliest years, then it's unlikely to win more than a dozen more scientific prizes in the next century (except, of course, for the rapidly increasing number of Chinese scientists who will have been taught in Western schools and who dare to think laterally because they have absorbed the non-Confucian culture). In balance of payments terms, China is going to be successful for a long time yet. It will need another 20 years or so to bring its coastline population of 600 million up to the average standard of living of the West (or as we 'enjoyed' it prior to 2008). It will take another 30 or so years for China to bring the rest of its 700 million rural population up to scratch even if all goes well with sufficient available world resources (in competition against the resource requirements of at least 2 billion in India, Brazil and Indonesia). I cannot see the second phase occurring in China because the major cities of the coastline will probably wrench their way out of centralized control and become largely independent city-states as, indeed, Hong Kong has largely remained since the British released their (non-democratic) control in 1997. The new provinces will not only monopolize the production of profitable exports but also the resources that are imported. Like the 80-class (that is, inadequately educated majority) of the Western countries, which is now increasingly dependent on state welfare benefits, the poor of the rural interior of China will, quite simply, not replenish themselves in sufficient numbers and will largely die out. What will be the future of the 20-class (that is, the adequately educated and connected class) of the West? More specifically, what will be the future of the 20-class in America, Germany and the UK? Together with a small number of exceptionally creative cultures such as Finland, Israel, Singapore or Switzerland, this is where the leading edge of research in neuroscience and genetics is to be found and likely to be maintained in the coming decades. The reason for this that both of these research areas are so complex that they increasingly require high connectivities between specialists researchers and large teams of researchers. Thus nascent ideas and commercial development in these two growth sectors will not be anywhere near as copiable as they have been hitherto in, say, engineering, nor can key personnel be recruited as individuals. But the 20-class of the West is also not replenishing its numbers itself at present. Will it, too, decide to fade away voluntarily as the increasingly impoverished 80-class has been doing for the past 30 years? Hardly. As the population falls away, and as immigration resistance of the West intensifies in order not to share their increasingly meagre welfare benefits, then the beauties and attractiveness of the natural world will be all the more available. And, as any parent knows, such enjoyment is greatly reinforced when there are children to share them with. The 20-class is likely to start having family sizes above two children in the coming years as they survive the present recession in good heart. But even if the 20-class doesn't breed enough children, neuroscience and genetics can help them specifically (in addition to their broader commercial development). Neuroscience tells us that large-scale rear-brain culling takes place before puberty. Too much culling (because of a poor informational and attention-ful family environment) is capable of blunting a child's mind greatly by the age of 5 years-old and almost completely so by the age of puberty. An inadequate brain is then largely irremediable. Skills that haven't developed by then are never teachable from then onwards to any high level. Also, genetics tells us that high intelligence is not so much the product of a few special genes but several hundred of them. High talent is more the product of DNA which does not have too many sub-optimal genes, whether dominant or recessive, rather than having anything unusual about it. Any 'ordinary' child, given a secure, affectionate upbringing with good socializing and educational opportunities at a very young age, and with good skill training to follow and a daily existence with sufficient spare time to think can produce what we call 'genius' or at least a 'brilliant' mind. And how will the 20-class recruit the talented numbers they require for continuation? It will do so in exactly the same way that the Dalai Lama used to be recruited by the Buddhist monks of Tibet or the Living Sun Goddess was (and continues to be) in Hindu Nepal. And if you want to know how they were recruited without the modern benefits of neuroscience and genetics, but fully consonant with them, please write to me. I have gone on long enough this morning and breakfast calls. Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com <http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/> Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com <http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/> _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
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