Sorry for the multiple postings folks but my Road Runner Outlook Express
seems beyond my ability to get right. This is the right subject now, you
can just discard the earlier post as a "terrible mistake." It looks like
computer companies would understand that humanity has a limit on RAM memory
as well as computers. They seem to just load up programs with little
differences that make you pay attention to things of no significance except
they can screw up the works. That is my read on all of Capitalism and its
idea of work. Things that are of no ultimate significance are emphasized
while the truly significant has no room and is thus ignored. Well here is
the right Subject and the correct message and my little complaint at the
beginning. Have a nice day ya'll, REH
To both Eds, Keith and Chris as well as the rest.
--What is the oldest Democracy on the planet?
--And what happened to all of the others older than 250 years old?
--I looked for Professor Conklin's Poli Sci 101 1959 reader in the history
of world Democracies but I think I must have have gotten rid of it many
years ago after I passed the course as a freshman. What I remember is
that Democracies tend to dissolve into tyrannies looking for a hero (tyrant)
or an elite (aristocracy) to take care of them. Freud would call it a
subconscious desire to recapture childhood and reconnect with long dead
parents. (No doubt Brad will correct me on that, since he is the
one with the psych degree.)
Stereotypes I admit but what I hear is a passionate young man who relies on
data to supplant experience while an experienced older man expects not to
have to answer that data due to his age. As for answering the questions,
I think that young people often keep us old farts youthful and honest and I
think that is probably the best gift they can give us in the twilight of our
years. After all, would we rather go with a weak body or a weak mind? It
was the wife of one of our list members, a scholar in her own right, who
pointed out to me what an idealistic young man Chris happens to be and how
likeable he is.
If I may quote one of my favorite elder wise men J.N. Warfield:
"... when complexity is involved,
linear communication is seriously deficient; ...
As a consequence, essentially all dialog is defective when
the topic exceeds the normal degree of difficulty. The idea that key
concepts can't be defined is a basic absurdity because all definition is
arbitrary. If there is any meaning to say something can't be defined, it
must be that (a) the means of defining are not known to the individual,
hence
he is treating the matter subjectively or (b) he means that it is not
possible to get a working consensus on what the term means."
Are we willing to define key concepts or shall we just stuff words in each
other's mouths because it is really as Fukuyama has said on more than one
occasion, "Western history is finished and this is a cultural war to the
death." (Actually I think Fukuyama is exploitive but he has a way of
picking the right subject and then being shallow and stuffy in his
examination of it. But this could just be cultural, like whether I enjoy
Ozawa or Von Karajan or not.)
--Did anyone read Susan George? That was about the clearest thinking that
I have read about what has happened to culture in the West in the 59 years
that I've been here. But no one commented. It pleased me that she was an
American but it depressed me that like so many original American thinkers
and artists the only place she could make a living was in France. Like the
Cherokee sculptor Jimmy Durham whose ancestors resisted the government,
refused to collaborate with the thieving state governments who acted like
Nazis and banned Indian religions from 1880 to 1978 and enrolled Indians to
keep track of them. Most of the traditional people hid in the mountains
rather than be jailed for speaking Cherokee or practicing the religion.
Today, the latest gloss is that no Indian without an enrollment number from
that period can earn a living as an Indian artist without it. Fines are
from $250,000 to over one million per infraction. The same being true to
any gallery that exhibits their work as Cherokee or even Indian.
This is the kind of private to government action that the "White" community
will now experience from private enterprise interacting with government from
a place of privilege in these trade actions. I grew up in a place where
corporations in collusion with the government destroyed the environment and
the lives of people with impunity and it keeps on going as the earth cries
out from a wound that they cannot heal without such a cost that it would
make the original meaning i.e. work, jobs and commerce, irrelevant.
Neo-liberals or conservatives like Fukuyama and others are simply
paralleling what the Dawes, the Curtises, the Rockefellers, the Astors and
the Goulds did in an earlier era.
Linguists like Chomsky and scientists like Gell-Mann (son of a linguist)
rail at the abuse of definition and the slaughter of clarity for
self-serving goals that ill serve the powerless. But even the historically
correct, and current historical heroes, will only be listened to after the
current powerful elites have had their way. After all, who cares if the
biggest drug baron from America was named Delano if his descendant becomes
President and saves the country? That is quite an excuse for making that
trip from financial worth to worship. I must admit that the discovery of
that triad worth/worthy/worthship was what began to save me from the
hypocrisy of Western religion. Never again will I take anything said by a
Capitalist Christian seriously. I will just know that they have an agenda
beyond anything they say and that is to rob me blind.
I would suggest that Ed Weick, and Keith start paying attention on this if
they have an estate and are not wealthy. It is not such a long way from
middle class Canada or Bath to Pine Ridge Reservation as one might think.
You can make it in one generation. I've seen it and can swear to the truth
of it. The Quapaws who were wealthy prior to WW II have been stripped
bare through government and private enterprise collaboration in their status
as dependant nations. Just as the Irish and Canary Islanders were a
warm-up for the European genocide in the Americas, so have the dependent
Indian Nations of America been a warm-up for what is now being worked out
here. This is not a new phenomenon but the reaction to it does resemble
the Jewish reaction prior to WW II. "This can't really be happening. It
must be the fault of the reactionary orthodox! If they would just be
quiet, we could live here comfortably as Germans." Living with
Holocaust surviver's stories here in New York it is an eery feeling to hear
their stories resonate with those from my own family two generations earlier
here in the good ole' US of A.
We've even had it on this list as one Non-Indian Futurist Ex-Government
Employee member brought the Indian answer to poverty (Casinos) to this list
because his son had become a gambler by profession. (I don't see much
difference between the market ponzi scheme and the FW son's professional
choice.) The NIFEGE didn't get the parallel but I did and it is more true
today. People always want security so these NAFTA, GATT etc. agreements
take the mafia approach to people's Democratic governments and load their
Media cable mouthpieces with propaganda worthy of any Leni Riefenstall or
Commissar. Cherokees believe that you can't know anything for sure unless
you have experienced it first hand in your life. I've seen and experienced
both types of treaties and their after affects through my family history and
am now seeing again in the current Neo-whichevers Chicago based conversion
of the economy. But what I've seen has no meaning unless you have as well.
Chris obviously has experienced some of these things first hand and seems to
have strong feelings about it, (in his comments on the Prime Minister of
Luxemburg a small country close by with barely half a million residents,
less than half of the NYCity school system's students or that you could seat
comfortably in our subways at any time of day.) Juncker has the third
highest per capita income behind Liechtenstein and first place to
Switzerland. (Derbyshire & Derbyshire). But such a small population means
that his statement could more resemble a New York City Councilman or our
local Congressman then it would the Canadian Prime Minister or world leader.
In Europe his power is more akin to the City Manager of the super-wealthy
Nichol's Hills sub-division in Oklahoma City. One would expect that the
problem with Juncker's comments would be even more applicalbe to a larger
less involved and more spread out population then is the case in the three
tiny European wealthy sub-divisions. I suspect their high per capita income
and involved population has more than a little to do with their being
subsidized by the less involved larger neighbors. So Juncker's comment
probably means little in such a small highly educated elite area.
Also no one seemed to comment on Chris's statement about environmental
overrides in Scandinavia either. I've seen that one before in Oklahoma
with Oil and mining interests. In collusion with the state government,
they polluted the aquifer for three states, areas the size of Germany and
France, in the quest for another drop of oil and in the Eagle-Picher Mining
Company's desire to quit their mines with as little cost as possible. (They
didn't cap the wells into the Aquifer and as ground water rose it flooded
the huge Rubidoux Aquifer.) When they complain about the Eastern Bloc of
the old Soviet Empire I remember a little girl named Amy with a bad case of
lead poisoning who was kicked out of public school for aggressiveness.
(Lead causes aggressive behavior.)
Personally, I think all of this comes down to whether you have competency
and leadership in your government or corporations or not. Whether one is
patriotic or loyal is another point as well. When people are called
traitorous or seditious for being self-serving at the expense of the general
population, things change. That is why it has been so important for the
corporations to control the Media here in the US. They didn't want a
competitor documenting their seditious behaviour.
But wherever there has been competant leadership, democracy and corporate
management has both worked and worked together. And Ed, it even worked in
the Soviet agriculture for a while. I know because we had farmers from
Oklahoma who went as observers at one point and they were impressed and used
it to goad our farmers into being more competitive. But there are no final
exams here. What was good today can be garbage tomorrow and usually is.
Competant leadership is everything. For example: Rudi Giuliani has been a
decent although provincial Italian Catholic mayor. His strengths have not
been in his faith but in his leadership abilities which are considerable.
The same was true of President Clinton and Donald Trump in real estate.
Clinton has a mixed record but he certainly was competant in using the
system to achieve the possible. But competency in one area does not mean
that you are good in others. It is almost folk tale status that graduate
CEOs from major Universities are not capable of understanding memos of more
than three sentences at a time. In fact they insist that difficult issues
need no more explanation than what it takes to regulate the bathroom key for
employees. According to the story, they are constantly being rescued by
the experienced who then get downsized by the CEOs. Note HP's recent
downsizing from the lady at the top. Whether stories about government,
corporation or academia, incompetance makes a better tale than the drudgery
of grinding success. So most tales are about incompetance while the old
Nazi and Soviet culture ministries give good news and success the air of
lies and denial of reality.
So does this mean that Capitalism or Democracy is not capable of handling
complexity? For every comment you make about incompetent politicians and
waste, I can personally tell you about my dealings in the private sector
over the last 30 years. But I can also make comments about academics
and government officials as well. The point that I'm making is that
systematic change is important in the evolution of things but that
complexity can only be managed by the truly competant. If compexity is
high then competancy is low and you are likely to get screwed by the
competant who are self-serving and immoral. i.e. your competitor wherever
they work or live.
I've disagreed with Chris on many things but I don't see why Ed or Keith got
so upset with the youngster from the wealthy side of Europe. In fact I
will go one better and say that you shouldn't have and that it was beneath
your own competance to do so. I'm posting this to the list because it
came to me on the list and because I value all of you and would hate to see
the same kind of "pinned to the wall" that happened with Hanson and Kurtz.
Two people that I miss and valued. If Chris's data was wrong then give
something counter. You certainly have done so to me upon occassion as has
Chris. I never liked it and screamed but if you were right, I modified my
thought. Sometimes you were, but right now, from my place of ignorance on
the specifics of these "Nouveau-Indian Treaties," it seems that Chris is the
one who has the data. I even shout encouragement when something you or he
says that challenges my prejudices. That is the fun of this type of
aggressive dialogue.
I must say that the passionate tone and the intelligent information on FW
has done a lot for me personally over the past four years and has and does
help me immensely in my own company and my dealings with the non-Artistic as
well as non-Indian world. I have struggled through and tried out many
conversations with the list before I had to meet people face to face on
important issues that have to do with the future of my work and of artistic
work in general. And that goes from normal business meetings to cultural
meetings and even NGO conferences at the UN.
So keep up the good work and good will. And remember that we old farts
need the young and the affluent to keep us on the edge, sane and rescued
from being stale in our memories and thinking or angry at our poverty.
Thanks to Ed G. for that last article on the purpose of culture from
Toronto. It makes me proud to be an artist and points out why it was that
artists discovered perspective instead of the scientists of the day. Of
course most of the scientists of the day were amateur artists, musicians and
composers.
Ray Evans Harrell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Goertzen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 4:43 PM
Subject: [Chris][Kieth] Re: Musings on the FTAA
> Hi All:
> If this "wrong Ed" who lacks both letters and formal qualifications can
> interject, I am reminded of the Prof whose mind was so full of knowledge
> that you couldn't possibly introduce a new thought.
>
> As Mortimer J Adler's book "10 Philosophical Mistakes" taught me, there is
> a difference between knowledge and opinion, even when well informed
opinion
> is conventionally accepted as being true.
> Knowledge, he claims, is that which can be (is capable of being)
disproven.
> All else is opinion.
>
> Yours in ignorance,
> Ed G
>
>
>
> ====================
> From: Keith Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Musings on the FTAA
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> It needed to be said. I was angry with Christoph Reuss a week or so ago
> when he wrote that I was trying to hoax the FW about the existence of
> super-volcanoes. Furthermore, he will simply not discuss differences of
> opinion with any logic and resorts to ad hominem arguments too readily.
> Several FWers wrote me privately in my support, but I think it's about
time
> that some support was given openly.
>
> FW has always had a high and courteous mode of discussion (except for one
> other several years ago) and it's unseemly that we descend into a bear
pit.
>
> Keith H
>
>
> At 13:19 29/04/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >Chris,
> >
> >I'm not sure of what you're after, but I'm getting tired of responding to
> >someone who is so absolutely correct that there is no room for dialogue.
> >You know nothing about me, and I'm pretty sure that I really don't want
to
> >know much about you. Judging from paragraphs like the following, you are
> >obviously out to offend and demean, and I really don't want to play your
> >game.
> >
> >> Hilarious. This just confirms that you swallowed his PR whole (and
only
> >> this was my point about the "buddy", nothing else). If anyone invites
a
> >> totalitarian system, it is uncritical people like you and "Quebec
Wall"-
> >> defenders like him.
> >
> >Stuff it,
> >Ed
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ___________________________________________________________________
>
> Keith Hudson, General Editor, Calus <http://www.calus.org>
> 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath BA1 5HX, England
> Tel: +44 1225 312622; Fax: +44 1225 447727;
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
