I confess. I harbour stereotypes. When we figure out a way to rid ourselves of such, please let me know.
arthur -----Original Message----- From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:36 AM To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) I don't want anyone to "lighten up" when it comes to racism and sexism or class issues. Under the guise of "just' stereotypes there have been more horrors committed that any of ua want to think about What we're talking about here has recently been very much in the news with the issue of racial profiling. It is one thing to acknowledge that there are differences between and among groups; that is simply the reality. When we then go on to assume that because an individual belongs to a group, that individual necessarily shares all the general characteristics of the group, good or bad, we're doing a terrible injustice to both the group and the individual A very good example is your statement that Keith was just "being British". If I were British I would be insulted by the implication that all Brits stereotype in the way the Keith does, and especially because he makes those statements as though the stereotypes are genetically based. Outrageous! Selma ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:24 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) > I am trying to get us to "lighten up" Who among us does not harbour > stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when we try to make > them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of athletes, > reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these stereotypes into > the open. > > In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT mentioning uncles > or aunts or brothers past behaviour. > > In the global extended family we might do well to maintain peaceful > relations and conversation by not using stereotypes to justify the overt > behviour of one group or another. > > arthur > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:14 AM > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > language) > > > I disagree, Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is the kind of > thing that frightens me so much on this list. > > Selma > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM > Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) > > > > Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is best kept in the > > pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are whizzes at > > computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. > > > > And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or Sephardic. > > Who cares? > > > > The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. Probably easy > to > > solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view body language > and > > facial expressions (unless Perle were present) > > > > And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) Carl Goldberg. > > > > Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. > > > > btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total control > over > > his emotions? > > > > arthur > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: devorah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:16 AM > > To: Keith Hudson > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > > language) > > > > > > No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, and the fact > that > > I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read your post. > The > > "some of my best friends" and the distinction between Ashkenazi Jews and > > other Jews -- which? -- are just the kinds of statements that signal the > > anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small letters, I found > your > > way of putting that you dislike Perle and his influence on the current > > American policy while talking about genes and the so-called > accomplishments > > of Jews that you seem to think you know about, offensive in the extreme to > > whoever happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think of her / > himself > > as a Jew. I don't think these are things that can be apologized for / > > about - Read your own post and do some heavy thinking if you don't like > the > > way the message comes across. > > Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. > > Faculty of Education > > University of Haifa > > Haifa, Israel 31905 > > Tel.: +972-4-8249357 > > Fax: +972-4-8240911 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Additional phone: > > +972-4-8123605 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "devorah" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:39 PM > > Subject: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) > > > > > > > Devorah, > > > > > > I don't like upper case words being hurled at me in the way that you > have > > > done. > > > > > > I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great admiration > for > > > many Jews -- particularly the Ashkenazi Jews from central Europe who > have > > > not only survived great suffering and persecution but have also produced > a > > > great proportion of the best ideas of the modern world. > > > > > > A Jew helped me once in a time of great distress and at his great cost > out > > > of a sense of justice. Most of his family died at Auswitch. I will > always > > > be grateful for his help. > > > > > > I would request your apology when you have read my posting more > carefully. > > > Then you and I can resume sensible discussion. > > > > > > Keith Hudson > > > > > > > > > > > > At 12:13 17/03/03 +0200, you wrote: > > > >Keith, was this supposed to be a rational analysis of the right-wing > > agenda > > > >that is pushing Bush and, by the way, several hundred thousand American > > > >soldiers into a deliberately planned war for oil and power over the > > entire > > > >continent of Asia? Since when does knowledge of details, knowledge of > > how > > > >to manipulate the body, and where to register for a college education > > come > > > >to people through genes? And presumably genes that by some miracle of > > > >skipping seas and generations, they have in common with the current > > > >right-wing Israeli government? Obviously you have an insight that goes > > far > > > >beyond that. > > > > > > > >YOUR COMMUNICATION IS A DEMONSTRATION OF SOMETHING I HAVE ALWAYS > DOUBTED > > > >EXISTED - A VIVID AND VITRIOLIC TRANSLATION OF A POLITICAL ARGUMENT > INTO > > > >RABID ANTI-SEMITISM. > > > > > > > >WILL YOU MAKE THE SAME KIND OF ARGUMENTS IF AND WHEN BUSH & CO DECIDE > TO > > > >INVADE NORTH KOREA? APPARENTLY IMMIGRANTS FROM THE FAR EAST TO THE US > > ALSO > > > >HAVE DANGEROUS GENES. AND CONSIDERING THAT THEY HAVE BROUGHT THEIR > GENES > > > >DIRECTLY TO THE STATES, THEY WILL BE IN AN EVEN MORE VULNERABLE > POSITION. > > > > > > > >Devorah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. > > > >Faculty of Education > > > >University of Haifa > > > >Haifa, Israel 31905 > > > >Tel.: +972-4-8249357 > > > >Fax: +972-4-8240911 > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Additional phone: > > > >+972-4-8123605 > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 10:41 AM > > > >Subject: [Futurework] Perle's body language, etc (was: It's the > > > >testosterone) > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi Lawry, > > > >> > > > >> At 15:55 16/03/03 -0500, you wrote: > > > >> >Keith -- I missed the debate you refer to. Can you comment on how > > Perle > > > >> >handled himself? Energy and body language? > > > >> > > > > >> >Thanks, > > > >> >L > > > >> > > > >> Ah! Interesting question! Since he's emerged from the mist, I've been > > > >> thinking a great deal about Perle recently. David Dimbleby's TV > > programmes > > > >> in the last two/three weeks concerning Iraq have exhibited some of > the > > > >> highest level debate that you're likely to find on TV. On two > occasions > > on > > > >> ITV (60 and 90 minute programmes) and one on BBC (60 minute > programme), > > > >> Perle has been the main protagonist speaking (long-distance video) > from > > > >> America while the expert platform interlocutors (except for Dimbleby > > > >> himself) have been different at this end in each programme. I might > > also > > > >> say that a great deal of care must have gone into the selection of > the > > > >> studio audiences. As far as I could judge, the most recent one fairly > > > >> represented the 60/40 (No/Yes) split in England. There were also > > several > > > >> brilliant expert speakers seated on the front row of the audience. > > Perle > > > >> was equal to any of them, audience or platform, except on a couple of > > > >> occasions (more later). > > > >> > > > >> (Incidentally, let me illustrate my comment from yesterday about the > > > >> "testosterone effect". A week ago, the opposition to Blair's support > > for > > > >> Bush was at around 65% in this country. A YouGov (Internet-based) > poll > > > >from > > > >> couple of days ago gave a 60/40 split. During yesterday's Dimbleby > > > >> programme, a phone-in vote gave a 55/45 split. I think if a poll were > > > >taken > > > >> later on today or tomorrow morning [assuming that Bush declares war > > then] > > > >I > > > >> would guess that a poll would show a 50/50 or even a 45/55 split in > > favour > > > >> of war. This rapidly shifting opinion of about 20% is due, to my > mind, > > to > > > >> the credulous portion of the male population who are now being > carried > > > >away > > > >> by the excitement of events. However, I think this trend will reverse > > > >> itself when women start expressing themselves more forcefully in the > > > >coming > > > >> weeks if there are large/gruesome fatalities among the Iraqi > > civilians.) > > > >> > > > >> (And now may I diverge just one more time before I discuss Perle in > > > >> particular? Here's a little bit about the neuropsychology of body > > > >language. > > > >> Most people are now aware that an individual being questioned will > give > > > >> away his state of stress by involuntary movements. For example, TV > > > >> camerapeople have long ago cottoned onto this by giving shots of > > > >> interlocutors' bobbing foot movements when individuals are lying -- > or > > the > > > >> darting hand scratching the back of the head, or ears, or nose. What > is > > > >not > > > >> widely known, though, is that the motor strip of the brain which > > transmits > > > >> muscle movement commands [both voluntary and involuntary] is far from > > > >being > > > >> proportionate to the layout of the body. In short, there are > relatively > > > >few > > > >> nerves running to and from most of the body -- feet, back, legs, > arms, > > etc > > > >> -- but a very large number from the face (particularly in and around > > the > > > >> mouth) and hands (particularly fingertips). In terms of numbers of > > brain > > > >> cells involved, the nerve control (or lack of control under stress) > of > > the > > > >> mouth and fingers comprise 45% of all body movements. Thus, if you > want > > to > > > >> relax, it is stupid and time-consuming to go through all the > systematic > > > >> procedures that physiotherapists tell you to do [usually starting > with > > > >> one's toes -- which have hardly any nerve endings!]. You can > > short-circuit > > > >> the whole tedious business by allowing one's mouth, lips and tongue > to > > > >> relax [when your mouth will moisten slightly] and one's fingers and > > > >> fingertips. You can achieve mental relaxation in two or three seconds > > > >flat. > > > >> Conversely, get those two areas under control and you're in charge, > and > > > >not > > > >> the interlocutor. Believe me, Perle knows this well!) > > > >> > > > >> Perle faces the camera directly with his elbows on a suitable level > of > > > >desk > > > >> or table, his forearms flat and one palm resting upon the other. You > > can > > > >> see nothing else. His hands never move. His face is almost immobile. > > His > > > >> mouth is relaxed, almost smiling when he's not talking. He is in > > perfect > > > >> control. The other interesting feature of Perle under questioning is > > that > > > >> he always delays his replies. There's a perceptible delay of about > two > > or > > > >> three seconds before replying to any question, tricky or otherwise > > (after > > > >> all, how does one know whether a simple question might not be tricky > > until > > > >> it's examined carefully!). This mode of response is very rare among > > > >> intellectuals (and is not usually necessary) because they usually > > fire-off > > > >> replies quicker than the average person ('cos their brains are > faster) > > but > > > >> this can get them into trouble quite often. (The ex-UK-UN ambassador > I > > > >> mentioned yesterday had also acquired this habit of delayed > responses.) > > > >> This may seem a trivial piece of behaviour but it's extremely > important > > > >> because a delay dampens down one's immediate emotional reaction and > > allows > > > >> sufficient time for rationalisation. > > > >> > > > >> So there you are! I have never seen anyone on TV who's under such > > control. > > > >> Perle seems perfectly relaxed. He smiles fairly frequently -- butter > > > >> wouldn't melt in his mouth. His voice is always well modulated. I saw > > only > > > >> two brief instances where Dimbleby on one occasion and the > > ex-ambassador > > > >on > > > >> another seemed to break through Perle's facial control -- revealing > > > >> ultra-rapid flashes of anxiety which soon passed into blandness. > > > >> > > > >> The only way I thought I could something of the real Perle and what > his > > > >> deeper underlying agenda might be was when he dealt with two other > > matters > > > >> which were thrown at him quite aggressively -- oil and Israel. Very > > > >briefly > > > >> (after the usual delay!) he cheerfully said that "Iraq's resources" > (he > > > >> didn't use the oil word!) would, "of course, come under the control > of > > a > > > >> new Iraqi government" (friendly to the US one assumes!), and "of > > course", > > > >> the matter of a Palestinian State would have to be considered soon. > He > > > >> moved onto the main theme very quickly after giving both of these > > > >> responses. I thought that these glissades were cleverly done and > > extremely > > > >> significant. > > > >> > > > >> I am, as you know, prejudiced on the oil issue, because I have > thought > > > >that > > > >> this has been the main motivation for the new war against Saddam > almost > > > >> from the beginning. However, I have tended to pooh-pooh the idea that > > > >there > > > >> might be an American-Jewish conspiracy involved -- which some are > > > >> maintaining. After all, there are as many Jewish-American > > intellectuals > > > >> who speak out against the war (if not more) as in favour. However, in > > the > > > >> way Perle dealt with the Israeli question on the last Dimbleby > > programme, > > > >I > > > >> detected more than a whiff that a Jewish motivation is also involved > > among > > > >> the group that is manipulating Bush -- Perle himself, of course, but > > also > > > >> Wolfovitch and Rumsfeld. There's also a speech-writer called Feith > who > > > >went > > > >> with Bush to the Azores and seems very influential -- much more than > > Colin > > > >> Powell. I don't know whether he has Ashkenazi genes, but I wouldn't > be > > > >> surprised. > > > >> > > > >> I don't believe for one moment that there is a well-defined > > > >Jewish-American > > > >> conspiracy, but Ashkenazi genes must feature very strongly in any > > American > > > >> administration simply because their IQ is so much higher than the > > average > > > >> European/American white and a million or two of them came from Poland > > and > > > >> central Russia a century ago. After all, 50% of those entering > Harvard > > > >> University (to choose one university) on the basis of SATS tests are > > > >> Jewish-Americans and East Asian-Americans -- 5% of the American > > > >population. > > > >> (Non-Jewish-American whites, comprising 75% of the population, get > only > > > >25% > > > >> of Harvard slots.) > > > >> > > > >> I seem to remember from somewhere that Bush Junior's SATS result was > > about > > > >> 660. I would think that Perle's score was probably double that. I'd > > love > > > >to > > > >> know. The concept of the IQ of individuals, while useful for job > > selection > > > >> in many cases, is useless in the case of those of the highest grade > of > > > >> intelligence because they are at, or above, the IQ of those who > concoct > > IQ > > > >> tests. Suffice it to say that it is my opinion, for what it is worth, > > that > > > >> Perle's intelligence (and control of body language!) is of the very > > > >highest > > > >> grade and it would be a formidable intellectual exercise to debate > with > > > >him > > > >> for any length of time. > > > >> > > > >> Keith Hudson > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > -------------- > > > Keith Hudson,6 Upper Camden Place, Bath BA1 5HX, England > > > Tel:01225 312622/444881; Fax:01225 447727; E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Futurework mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
