Now I have something to apologize for ---- I might have contributed to the stymying of a great man's thinking. What could be more damaging to the fate of the world than that! I would never want to do that!
p.s.: I have often wondered why people on lists can get as sarcastic as this self-satisfied - priggish (too 'cultured' a word) - uncouth --exchange has gotten me. Probably my tiny Jewish female --- oh yes, mother's brain. Never was worth much anyway. Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. Faculty of Education University of Haifa Haifa, Israel 31905 Tel.: +972-4-8249357 Fax: +972-4-8240911 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Additional phone: +972-4-8123605 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) > Harry, > > I wasn't sure what the point of your post was until I saw it at the end. > Please tell me if I am misinterpreting what you are trying to convey: > > I understand you to be saying that racist epithets have their place in our > conversations; that they can be used to provoke thought in a way that could > not be done otherwise; that those of us who object to the stereotypes > (whether based on factual evidence or not; stereotypes can never be accurate > because the characteristics of the group never apply completely to any one > individual) are overreacting to a way of speaking that is generally harmless > and we should in no way try to keep people from any of these kinds of > speech- I don't mean by legal or formal restrictions of any kind; I think > you are saying that it makes no sense at all to point out that these kinds > of speech can cause harm because that simply is not true. > > Please correct me if I am misinterpreting what you posted, Harry. > > Selma > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:05 PM > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body language) > > > > Selma and Devorah. > > > > Some of my best friends are Jews. In fact, most of my long time friends > are > > Jews. > > > > A disadvantage of my upbringing was that my parents never told me that > > Jews, or blacks, or Asians, were different. They sent me, unknowing, out > on > > to the road. > > > > Some snapshots: > > > > As a teenager, I did notice two newsagents - a Gentile 'Peers', and a Jew > > 'Arams'. Peers in a good location would open at 9 and close at 5. I would > > run into Arams as he left his shop at 8 pm at night. He worked hard. > > Although we were friends, I knew he was actually part of a Jewish > > conspiracy to dump Peers. (And he was so determined, he did it by hard > work.) > > > > When I chaired London's Young Liberals, we dropped off at Harry Gold's > > house in the East End of London. This was my first experience of a Jewish > > Mother. As Harry went about his business, she followed him, demanding > that > > he go to Synagogue, insisting there are some nice girls there, etc., etc. > > > > Harry mostly smiled and mollified, then gave her a kiss and we left. But, > I > > had met the Jewish Mother we've heard so much about. As the French, or > even > > the British would say - formidable. The funny thing was that she was like > > my Irish mother (replace Synagogue with Oratory). Had I not known that the > > Jews were a practically different species, I would have come to a > tentative > > conclusion that all mothers are pretty much the same. > > > > Along with Harry Gold, Jack Silver was on my Executive. I never worked it > > out, but those Jews were probably up to something devious. > > > > I did quite a bit of lecturing when I arrived in New York for 6 weeks > > before heading for Canada. In one speech, I used the N-word for black > > audiences, and the K-word for Jewish audiences. I would ask a question in > > which I would insert the word. Then after the commotion had died down, I > > would ask what the question was. No-one knew. Which would allow me to make > > my point. That they shouldn't allow emotional words to stop them > thinking - > > which reaction is the intend of the racists. > > > > Of course, I was 30, courageous (and a bit of a prig) all of which led to > > the experiments which did successfully make a point. I would be scared to > > try it now - though since then I have tried a similar experiment on radio. > > > > I tried the K-word on Canadian Jews, but it seemed to have no reaction. > > Unlike the New York Jews, the Canadian Jews were obviously part of a > > conspiracy to ruin my speeches. I knew it! > > > > Because there were so many socially conscious Jews at the Henry George > > School in New York (it was founded by a Jew) I thought in Toronto that a > > class at the Young Mens Hebrew Association would be highly successful, but > > the Secretary told me: "Harry, Jews are no different from Gentiles in > their > > approach to politics and economics." > > > > Why did he tell me that? What was his hidden agenda? > > > > We get to know each other very well as we exchange thoughts on the list. > > Keith is a pretty good bloke with a mind that ranges far. So, he brought > > into discussion some thoughts on Jews in high office. > > > > The reaction from Devorah was completely uncalled for. It's > understandable, > > but out of context. I want no restriction placed on Keith's thinking. It > is > > often too good - though, as I've told him - he needs a little work on AIDS > > and Nuclear Power. > > > > I fear we have a new class of people who might be called the > > Anti-Anti-Semites, or the Anti-Anti-Blacks. They jump on every real or > > imagined slight and make a Federal case out of it. So, for example, we can > > talk about white thugs, but are forbidden to talk about black thugs. We > can > > talk of conspiracies (we do all the time, gang, don't we?) - but not of > > Jewish conspiracies. > > > > We are so afraid of being thought anti-Semitic, or racist, that we don't > > talk about things we should talk about. That's a pity. > > > > Arthur is one of the nicest people on the list (he even puts up with me) > > yet he is completely wrong when he says "He uttered out loud what is best > > kept in the pub or club. He crossed the line." > > > > In the pub and club is exactly where such talk should not be kept. It is > > there that latent anti-Semitism comes oozing out. It's interesting and > when > > I encounter it, I say nothing. I merely listen and observe. It's > > interesting to me to find out how they think. The only difference between > > the pub and the club is perhaps the cockney and Oxbridge accents. > > > > The place for criticism of the Jews is out on the table where everyone can > > see it. That's healthy. But we dare not do that. It would be > anti-Semitism. > > > > When we explain prejudice in my courses, I often use: "Bill, the > Australian > > did me wrong. I hate Bill." > > > > That's OK. > > > > "Bill, the Australian did me wrong. I hate Australians." > > > > That's not OK. That's silly. It's also prejudice. > > > > Do Jews rub each other's backs - "conspire". Of course. Now, is that an > > anti-Semitic remark? > > > > Harry > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Selma wrote: > > > > >I don't want anyone to "lighten up" when it comes to racism and sexism or > > >class issues. Under the guise of "just' stereotypes there have been more > > >horrors committed that any of ua want to think about > > > > > >What we're talking about here has recently been very much in the news > with > > >the issue of racial profiling. It is one thing to acknowledge that there > are > > >differences between and among groups; that is simply the reality. When we > > >then go on to assume that because an individual belongs to a group, that > > >individual necessarily shares all the general characteristics of the > group, > > >good or bad, we're doing a terrible injustice to both the group and the > > >individual > > > > > >A very good example is your statement that Keith was just "being > British". > > >If I were British I would be insulted by the implication that all Brits > > >stereotype in the way the Keith does, and especially because he makes > those > > >statements as though the stereotypes are genetically based. Outrageous! > > > > > >Selma > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:24 AM > > >Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > language) > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to get us to "lighten up" Who among us does not harbour > > > > stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when we try to > > >make > > > > them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of > athletes, > > > > reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these > stereotypes > > >into > > > > the open. > > > > > > > > In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT mentioning > > >uncles > > > > or aunts or brothers past behaviour. > > > > > > > > In the global extended family we might do well to maintain peaceful > > > > relations and conversation by not using stereotypes to justify the > overt > > > > behviour of one group or another. > > > > > > > > arthur > > > > > > ****************************** > > Harry Pollard > > Henry George School of LA > > Box 655 > > Tujunga CA 91042 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Tel: (818) 352-4141 > > Fax: (818) 353-2242 > > ******************************* > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.462 / Virus Database: 261 - Release Date: 3/13/2003 > > > > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
