I'm sorry, Ray. We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. The issue, for me, is not whether people have cultures that influence how they think of themselves and how others think of them. Of course I'm aware of that.
The issue is that words impact behavior in very powerful ways and when stereeotypes are used they can cause great harm and are used as weapons by those who would do harm and are used in ignorance by those who do not know any better. I, like Devorah, do not understand what all this discussion of cultural differences has to do with the issue of what harm is done by stereotypes. Please see the post I just sent to Arthur about allowing people in the business world to spout sexist, racist, classic, homophobic stereotypes and the issue in schools and police departments,etc. Are you really trying to say that language and behavior are not connected? Selma ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > I would define a stereotype as a generalization about an individual based > on > > assumptions about the characteristics of the group to which the individual > > is assumed to belong; > > Assumptions or experiences with the style and culture of the group? > Style and culture are always givens about every group. In the Arts a > multitude of traditions is considered a richness but when one group holds > the other to the rules of their own particular style and cultural product > then everyone loses for one view empirically elevated to THE view creates a > mind and spirit numbing sameness. Nothing is more strange than listening > to Chinese traditional singers singing with a bel canto method taught by > some Western Voice Teacher who convinced them that his was the "correct" > method of singing everything. Convention, tradition, characteristics are > the truths of a particular cultural universe. Let me give you and > example. It is generally considered terrible to have human sacrifice, > however many of these cultures who practiced it had a first hand connection > to death and its results. Overall, they had a lower death rate than the > groups that praised the worth of every human life and went to war to protect > it and extend its principles in Empire. But this is not only the Liberal > Capitalistic West but both versions of Western Socialism as well. > Everyone claims that it wouldn't happen if it wasn't for people not being > good enough at applying the principles. But that is nonsense, the > government you get with Democracy is like America, France and the rest of > Europe along with their 100 million deaths of the 20th century. The same > is true for the Soviets, the Chinese, the Cambodians etc. The deaths were > an acceptable collateral damage or they would not have been accomplished. > Compared to that the one human sacrifice of the Pawnees and the few deaths > accomplished in competitive raids on neighbors are almost non-existant and > yet the story is about how violent the Pawnee were for facing death in the > face and not doing it from 10,000 feet or twenty miles. > > My point Selma is that there is no righteousness here, just difference and > each group has its own way of answering the eternal questions and creating a > system that they can live with. Tradition is ignored and thrown away at > great risk. Tradition is the learning of a million years of human > evolution in each flower of every culture around the world. Tradition and > its psycho-physical artifacts is the stereotype, the contextual frame, that > we all place around our life and culture. > > > those assumptions about the group may or may not be > > based on factual evidence. > > We mix up the original meaning of Stereotype with plain old guessing and > lying about other peoples. I would prefer we not degrade the word from > its original meaning and its usefulness. Instead call a spade a spade. > Assumptions are either based upon serious observation or they are > projections based upon wish and hearsay. Europe has a tradition of > writing everything from the library where they are researching their paper. > In fact the great debate between Aristotilian Logic and Scientific > Observation has to do with whether it is appropriate to actually count the > teeth in the donkey's mouth or to deduce it from the books in your library. > We do the same thing now with the internet and the search engines. But > any serious scholar can pick out the junk in this machine. Junk put there > for various self-serving reasons by people from around the world. They > even make the library sick for the same reasons. Call it what it is. > Lies, ignorance, chauvinism, provenciality etc. But we don't throw out the > libraries. Library has not become a demeaned word in spite of the abuses > and we still use our computers. The confusion of words like Stereotype, > Library, Computer, Productivity etc is that it was lifted from its original > purpose and has cast a long shadow over the values of convention and > tradition ending up making the "Creative" as the opposite of "Tradition." > Doesn't make sense to me. Does it to you? > > REH > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 1:03 PM > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > language) > > > > > > > Stereotype comes from the frame that exists as the heading of a > newspaper. > > > It is not the daily news, it simply implies ownership. > > > > > > REH > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:29 PM > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > > language) > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that stereotypes were harmful. Sometimes they are > > sometimes > > > > not. > > > > > > > > You seem to think that stereotypes are harmful. I don't. Perhaps we > can > > > > agree to disagree. > > > > > > > > And yes, I do change my views on many things. Its called learning. > > > > > > > > arthur > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:15 PM > > > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > So I guess I am interpreting your messages correctly; it's simply not > > > > possible for people to change, modify or rid themselves of their > > > stereotypes > > > > or harmful ways of thinking. > > > > > > > > Would you say that it is genetically determined? > > > > > > > > Selma > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:14 PM > > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Think what you want, just don't act on it. > > > > > > > > > > Civility and the rule of law allows a complex society to function. > I > > > > don't > > > > > expect people to "like" me. Overt civility and mutual respect go a > > long > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > > By enforcing politically correct codes of behaviour and ways of > > thinking > > > > on > > > > > ourselves and others we may end up in a place that is not so > > desirable. > > > > > > > > > > Humans seem to have a need for the "other". When you figure out a > way > > > for > > > > > all of us to sing Beethoven's Ninth together and really mean it, > > please > > > > let > > > > > me know. > > > > > > > > > > arthur > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:06 PM > > > > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arthur, > > > > > > > > > > Please correct me if I am misinterpreting your post. > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that it is not possible for people to realize that > the > > > > > stereotyping that they're doing can cause harm? And that if they do > > > > realize > > > > > it there is no possibility that they will try to stop doing it or be > > > aware > > > > > of it in others and try to get it diminished? > > > > > > > > > > I am not the least bit interested in having people be 'civil' to me > > who > > > > have > > > > > stereotypes about me that are insulting. > > > > > > > > > > Is it only if it results in some kind of formal policy or > legislation > > > that > > > > > it can be changed? > > > > > > > > > > It's just not clear to me what you mean to be saying when you insist > > > that > > > > it > > > > > is impossible for people to get rid of stereotypes. Is it also > > > impossible > > > > > for people to change their attitudes which are prejudicial, > > misinformed, > > > > > based on erroneous information, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Please clarify. > > > > > > > > > > Selma > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 12:00 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harbouring stereotypes is probably some sort of elaboration of > > pattern > > > > > > recognition. Thinking in this way doesn't cause harm. Acting on > > this > > > > in > > > > > a > > > > > > public policy way can cause problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > btw, I am Jewish. I have been insulted, beaten up and called > dirty > > > Jew > > > > > many > > > > > > times. I identify with Jewishness across the board--from Einstein > > to > > > > the > > > > > > streetcorner merchant. My father changed his name from Cohen to > > > Cordell > > > > > > because of anti-semitism. I know a little about what some are > > > feeling. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would rather that people were gender blind, colour blind, and > > > racially > > > > > > neutral----but they are not. No amount of appeal to sweet reason > > will > > > > > seem > > > > > > to work. Civility and acceptance and avoiding some issues seems > to > > be > > > > > > useful. > > > > > > > > > > > > arthur > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:51 AM > > > > > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > > > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some progress might be made if we would refuse to accept them as > > okay > > > > and > > > > > > dismiss them as trivial. All of us are affected by the various > > > cultural > > > > > > ideas that hurt people; if we ever hope to become more humane we > > must > > > > work > > > > > > to become aware of those ideas that get in the way and to diminish > > > their > > > > > > impact and hope to destroy them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Arthur, are you trying to say that you have never been able to > > change > > > > any > > > > > of > > > > > > your ideas or behavior when you realized that they were hurtful to > > > > > yourself > > > > > > of others? Or have you never had any such behaviors? > > > > > > > > > > > > Selma > > > > > > > > > > > > Selma > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:43 AM > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body > > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I confess. I harbour stereotypes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When we figure out a way to rid ourselves of such, please let me > > > know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > arthur > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:36 AM > > > > > > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's > body > > > > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want anyone to "lighten up" when it comes to racism and > > > sexism > > > > > or > > > > > > > class issues. Under the guise of "just' stereotypes there have > > been > > > > more > > > > > > > horrors committed that any of ua want to think about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we're talking about here has recently been very much in the > > > news > > > > > with > > > > > > > the issue of racial profiling. It is one thing to acknowledge > that > > > > there > > > > > > are > > > > > > > differences between and among groups; that is simply the > reality. > > > When > > > > > we > > > > > > > then go on to assume that because an individual belongs to a > > group, > > > > that > > > > > > > individual necessarily shares all the general characteristics of > > the > > > > > > group, > > > > > > > good or bad, we're doing a terrible injustice to both the group > > and > > > > the > > > > > > > individual > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A very good example is your statement that Keith was just "being > > > > > British". > > > > > > > If I were British I would be insulted by the implication that > all > > > > Brits > > > > > > > stereotype in the way the Keith does, and especially because he > > > makes > > > > > > those > > > > > > > statements as though the stereotypes are genetically based. > > > > Outrageous! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selma > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:24 AM > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's > body > > > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to get us to "lighten up" Who among us does not > > > harbour > > > > > > > > stereotypes of one sort or another? The problem arises when > we > > > try > > > > to > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > them operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case > of > > > > > > athletes, > > > > > > > > reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we bring these > > > > > stereotypes > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > the open. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT > > > mentioning > > > > > > > uncles > > > > > > > > or aunts or brothers past behaviour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the global extended family we might do well to maintain > > > peaceful > > > > > > > > relations and conversation by not using stereotypes to justify > > the > > > > > overt > > > > > > > > behviour of one group or another. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > arthur > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:14 AM > > > > > > > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's > > body > > > > > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree, Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is > > the > > > > > kind > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > thing that frightens me so much on this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Selma > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's > > body > > > > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith is just being British. He uttered out loud what is > best > > > > kept > > > > > in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many) Asians are > > whizzes > > > > at > > > > > > > > > computers and maths. And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei > or > > > > > > > Sephardic. > > > > > > > > > Who cares? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset. > > > > Probably > > > > > > easy > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > solve if we were face to face in a pub where we could view > > body > > > > > > language > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > facial expressions (unless Perle were present) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp face) > Carl > > > > > > Goldberg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith, this is nonsense. Aplogize. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > btw, why don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have > total > > > > > control > > > > > > > > over > > > > > > > > > his emotions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > arthur > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: devorah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:16 AM > > > > > > > > > To: Keith Hudson > > > > > > > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: > Perle's > > > body > > > > > > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No apology. The fact is that I never write in upper-case, > and > > > the > > > > > fact > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > I felt the need in this case just shows how carefully I read > > > your > > > > > > post. > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > "some of my best friends" and the distinction between > > Ashkenazi > > > > Jews > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > other Jews -- which? -- are just the kinds of statements > that > > > > signal > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small > > letters, > > > I > > > > > > found > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > way of putting that you dislike Perle and his influence on > the > > > > > current > > > > > > > > > American policy while talking about genes and the so-called > > > > > > > > accomplishments > > > > > > > > > of Jews that you seem to think you know about, offensive in > > the > > > > > > extreme > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > whoever happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think > of > > > her > > > > / > > > > > > > > himself > > > > > > > > > as a Jew. I don't think these are things that can be > > apologized > > > > for > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > about - Read your own post and do some heavy thinking if you > > > don't > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > way the message comes across. > > > > > > > > > Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. > > > > > > > > > Faculty of Education > > > > > > > > > University of Haifa > > > > > > > > > Haifa, Israel 31905 > > > > > > > > > Tel.: +972-4-8249357 > > > > > > > > > Fax: +972-4-8240911 > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Additional phone: > > > > > > > > > +972-4-8123605 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > To: "devorah" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:39 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's > body > > > > > > language) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devorah, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't like upper case words being hurled at me in the > way > > > that > > > > > you > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > done. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great > > > > > > admiration > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > many Jews -- particularly the Ashkenazi Jews from central > > > Europe > > > > > who > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > not only survived great suffering and persecution but have > > > also > > > > > > > produced > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > great proportion of the best ideas of the modern world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Jew helped me once in a time of great distress and at > his > > > > great > > > > > > cost > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > of a sense of justice. Most of his family died at > Auswitch. > > I > > > > will > > > > > > > > always > > > > > > > > > > be grateful for his help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would request your apology when you have read my posting > > > more > > > > > > > > carefully. > > > > > > > > > > Then you and I can resume sensible discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 12:13 17/03/03 +0200, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Keith, was this supposed to be a rational analysis of the > > > > > > right-wing > > > > > > > > > agenda > > > > > > > > > > >that is pushing Bush and, by the way, several hundred > > > thousand > > > > > > > American > > > > > > > > > > >soldiers into a deliberately planned war for oil and > power > > > over > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > entire > > > > > > > > > > >continent of Asia? Since when does knowledge of details, > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > >to manipulate the body, and where to register for a > college > > > > > > education > > > > > > > > > come > > > > > > > > > > >to people through genes? And presumably genes that by > some > > > > > miracle > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >skipping seas and generations, they have in common with > the > > > > > current > > > > > > > > > > >right-wing Israeli government? Obviously you have an > > insight > > > > that > > > > > > > goes > > > > > > > > > far > > > > > > > > > > >beyond that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >YOUR COMMUNICATION IS A DEMONSTRATION OF SOMETHING I > HAVE > > > > ALWAYS > > > > > > > > DOUBTED > > > > > > > > > > >EXISTED - A VIVID AND VITRIOLIC TRANSLATION OF A > POLITICAL > > > > > ARGUMENT > > > > > > > > INTO > > > > > > > > > > >RABID ANTI-SEMITISM. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >WILL YOU MAKE THE SAME KIND OF ARGUMENTS IF AND WHEN BUSH > & > > > CO > > > > > > DECIDE > > > > > > > > TO > > > > > > > > > > >INVADE NORTH KOREA? APPARENTLY IMMIGRANTS FROM THE FAR > EAST > > > TO > > > > > THE > > > > > > US > > > > > > > > > ALSO > > > > > > > > > > >HAVE DANGEROUS GENES. AND CONSIDERING THAT THEY HAVE > > BROUGHT > > > > > THEIR > > > > > > > > GENES > > > > > > > > > > >DIRECTLY TO THE STATES, THEY WILL BE IN AN EVEN MORE > > > VULNERABLE > > > > > > > > POSITION. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Devorah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc. > > > > > > > > > > >Faculty of Education > > > > > > > > > > >University of Haifa > > > > > > > > > > >Haifa, Israel 31905 > > > > > > > > > > >Tel.: +972-4-8249357 > > > > > > > > > > >Fax: +972-4-8240911 > > > > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > >Additional phone: > > > > > > > > > > >+972-4-8123605 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > >Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 10:41 AM > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: [Futurework] Perle's body language, etc (was: > It's > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >testosterone) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi Lawry, > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> At 15:55 16/03/03 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> >Keith -- I missed the debate you refer to. Can you > > comment > > > > on > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > Perle > > > > > > > > > > >> >handled himself? Energy and body language? > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > >> >L > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Ah! Interesting question! Since he's emerged from the > > mist, > > > > > I've > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > >> thinking a great deal about Perle recently. David > > > Dimbleby's > > > > TV > > > > > > > > > programmes > > > > > > > > > > >> in the last two/three weeks concerning Iraq have > > exhibited > > > > some > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> highest level debate that you're likely to find on TV. > On > > > two > > > > > > > > occasions > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > >> ITV (60 and 90 minute programmes) and one on BBC (60 > > minute > > > > > > > > programme), > > > > > > > > > > >> Perle has been the main protagonist speaking > > (long-distance > > > > > > video) > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > >> America while the expert platform interlocutors (except > > for > > > > > > > Dimbleby > > > > > > > > > > >> himself) have been different at this end in each > > programme. > > > I > > > > > > might > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > >> say that a great deal of care must have gone into the > > > > selection > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> studio audiences. As far as I could judge, the most > > recent > > > > one > > > > > > > fairly > > > > > > > > > > >> represented the 60/40 (No/Yes) split in England. There > > were > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > several > > > > > > > > > > >> brilliant expert speakers seated on the front row of > the > > > > > > audience. > > > > > > > > > Perle > > > > > > > > > > >> was equal to any of them, audience or platform, except > on > > a > > > > > > couple > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >> occasions (more later). > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> (Incidentally, let me illustrate my comment from > > yesterday > > > > > about > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> "testosterone effect". A week ago, the opposition to > > > Blair's > > > > > > > support > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > >> Bush was at around 65% in this country. A YouGov > > > > > (Internet-based) > > > > > > > > poll > > > > > > > > > > >from > > > > > > > > > > >> couple of days ago gave a 60/40 split. During > yesterday's > > > > > > Dimbleby > > > > > > > > > > >> programme, a phone-in vote gave a 55/45 split. I think > if > > a > > > > > poll > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > > >taken > > > > > > > > > > >> later on today or tomorrow morning [assuming that Bush > > > > declares > > > > > > war > > > > > > > > > then] > > > > > > > > > > >I > > > > > > > > > > >> would guess that a poll would show a 50/50 or even a > > 45/55 > > > > > split > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > favour > > > > > > > > > > >> of war. This rapidly shifting opinion of about 20% is > > due, > > > to > > > > > my > > > > > > > > mind, > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > >> the credulous portion of the male population who are > now > > > > being > > > > > > > > carried > > > > > > > > > > >away > > > > > > > > > > >> by the excitement of events. However, I think this > trend > > > will > > > > > > > reverse > > > > > > > > > > >> itself when women start expressing themselves more > > > forcefully > > > > > in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >coming > > > > > > > > > > >> weeks if there are large/gruesome fatalities among the > > > Iraqi > > > > > > > > > civilians.) > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> (And now may I diverge just one more time before I > > discuss > > > > > Perle > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > >> particular? Here's a little bit about the > neuropsychology > > > of > > > > > body > > > > > > > > > > >language. > > > > > > > > > > >> Most people are now aware that an individual being > > > questioned > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > give > > > > > > > > > > >> away his state of stress by involuntary movements. For > > > > example, > > > > > > TV > > > > > > > > > > >> camerapeople have long ago cottoned onto this by giving > > > shots > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >> interlocutors' bobbing foot movements when individuals > > are > > > > > > lying -- > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> darting hand scratching the back of the head, or ears, > or > > > > nose. > > > > > > > What > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > >not > > > > > > > > > > >> widely known, though, is that the motor strip of the > > brain > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > transmits > > > > > > > > > > >> muscle movement commands [both voluntary and > involuntary] > > > is > > > > > far > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > >being > > > > > > > > > > >> proportionate to the layout of the body. In short, > there > > > are > > > > > > > > relatively > > > > > > > > > > >few > > > > > > > > > > >> nerves running to and from most of the body -- feet, > > back, > > > > > legs, > > > > > > > > arms, > > > > > > > > > etc > > > > > > > > > > >> -- but a very large number from the face (particularly > in > > > and > > > > > > > around > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> mouth) and hands (particularly fingertips). In terms of > > > > numbers > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > brain > > > > > > > > > > >> cells involved, the nerve control (or lack of control > > under > > > > > > stress) > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> mouth and fingers comprise 45% of all body movements. > > Thus, > > > > if > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > want > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > >> relax, it is stupid and time-consuming to go through > all > > > the > > > > > > > > systematic > > > > > > > > > > >> procedures that physiotherapists tell you to do > [usually > > > > > starting > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > >> one's toes -- which have hardly any nerve endings!]. > You > > > can > > > > > > > > > short-circuit > > > > > > > > > > >> the whole tedious business by allowing one's mouth, > lips > > > and > > > > > > tongue > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > >> relax [when your mouth will moisten slightly] and one's > > > > fingers > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > >> fingertips. You can achieve mental relaxation in two or > > > three > > > > > > > seconds > > > > > > > > > > >flat. > > > > > > > > > > >> Conversely, get those two areas under control and > you're > > in > > > > > > charge, > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > >not > > > > > > > > > > >> the interlocutor. Believe me, Perle knows this well!) > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Perle faces the camera directly with his elbows on a > > > suitable > > > > > > level > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >desk > > > > > > > > > > >> or table, his forearms flat and one palm resting upon > the > > > > > other. > > > > > > > You > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > >> see nothing else. His hands never move. His face is > > almost > > > > > > > immobile. > > > > > > > > > His > > > > > > > > > > >> mouth is relaxed, almost smiling when he's not talking. > > He > > > is > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > perfect > > > > > > > > > > >> control. The other interesting feature of Perle under > > > > > questioning > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > >> he always delays his replies. There's a perceptible > delay > > > of > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > >> three seconds before replying to any question, tricky > or > > > > > > otherwise > > > > > > > > > (after > > > > > > > > > > >> all, how does one know whether a simple question might > > not > > > be > > > > > > > tricky > > > > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > > > >> it's examined carefully!). This mode of response is > very > > > rare > > > > > > among > > > > > > > > > > >> intellectuals (and is not usually necessary) because > they > > > > > usually > > > > > > > > > fire-off > > > > > > > > > > >> replies quicker than the average person ('cos their > > brains > > > > are > > > > > > > > faster) > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > >> this can get them into trouble quite often. (The > ex-UK-UN > > > > > > > ambassador > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > >> mentioned yesterday had also acquired this habit of > > delayed > > > > > > > > responses.) > > > > > > > > > > >> This may seem a trivial piece of behaviour but it's > > > extremely > > > > > > > > important > > > > > > > > > > >> because a delay dampens down one's immediate emotional > > > > reaction > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > allows > > > > > > > > > > >> sufficient time for rationalisation. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> So there you are! I have never seen anyone on TV who's > > > under > > > > > such > > > > > > > > > control. > > > > > > > > > > >> Perle seems perfectly relaxed. He smiles fairly > > > frequently -- > > > > > > > butter > > > > > > > > > > >> wouldn't melt in his mouth. His voice is always well > > > > modulated. > > > > > I > > > > > > > saw > > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > >> two brief instances where Dimbleby on one occasion and > > the > > > > > > > > > ex-ambassador > > > > > > > > > > >on > > > > > > > > > > >> another seemed to break through Perle's facial > control -- > > > > > > revealing > > > > > > > > > > >> ultra-rapid flashes of anxiety which soon passed into > > > > > blandness. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> The only way I thought I could something of the real > > Perle > > > > and > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > >> deeper underlying agenda might be was when he dealt > with > > > two > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > matters > > > > > > > > > > >> which were thrown at him quite aggressively -- oil and > > > > Israel. > > > > > > Very > > > > > > > > > > >briefly > > > > > > > > > > >> (after the usual delay!) he cheerfully said that > "Iraq's > > > > > > resources" > > > > > > > > (he > > > > > > > > > > >> didn't use the oil word!) would, "of course, come under > > the > > > > > > control > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > >> new Iraqi government" (friendly to the US one > assumes!), > > > and > > > > > "of > > > > > > > > > course", > > > > > > > > > > >> the matter of a Palestinian State would have to be > > > considered > > > > > > soon. > > > > > > > > He > > > > > > > > > > >> moved onto the main theme very quickly after giving > both > > of > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > > >> responses. I thought that these glissades were cleverly > > > done > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > extremely > > > > > > > > > > >> significant. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> I am, as you know, prejudiced on the oil issue, because > I > > > > have > > > > > > > > thought > > > > > > > > > > >that > > > > > > > > > > >> this has been the main motivation for the new war > against > > > > > Saddam > > > > > > > > almost > > > > > > > > > > >> from the beginning. However, I have tended to pooh-pooh > > the > > > > > idea > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > >there > > > > > > > > > > >> might be an American-Jewish conspiracy involved -- > which > > > some > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > >> maintaining. After all, there are as many > > Jewish-American > > > > > > > > > intellectuals > > > > > > > > > > >> who speak out against the war (if not more) as in > favour. > > > > > > However, > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> way Perle dealt with the Israeli question on the last > > > > Dimbleby > > > > > > > > > programme, > > > > > > > > > > >I > > > > > > > > > > >> detected more than a whiff that a Jewish motivation is > > also > > > > > > > involved > > > > > > > > > among > > > > > > > > > > >> the group that is manipulating Bush -- Perle himself, > of > > > > > course, > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > >> Wolfovitch and Rumsfeld. There's also a speech-writer > > > called > > > > > > Feith > > > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > > > >went > > > > > > > > > > >> with Bush to the Azores and seems very influential -- > > much > > > > more > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > > > >> Powell. I don't know whether he has Ashkenazi genes, > but > > I > > > > > > wouldn't > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > >> surprised. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't believe for one moment that there is a > > well-defined > > > > > > > > > > >Jewish-American > > > > > > > > > > >> conspiracy, but Ashkenazi genes must feature very > > strongly > > > in > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > American > > > > > > > > > > >> administration simply because their IQ is so much > higher > > > than > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > average > > > > > > > > > > >> European/American white and a million or two of them > came > > > > from > > > > > > > Poland > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > >> central Russia a century ago. After all, 50% of those > > > > entering > > > > > > > > Harvard > > > > > > > > > > >> University (to choose one university) on the basis of > > SATS > > > > > tests > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > >> Jewish-Americans and East Asian-Americans -- 5% of the > > > > American > > > > > > > > > > >population. > > > > > > > > > > >> (Non-Jewish-American whites, comprising 75% of the > > > > population, > > > > > > get > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > >25% > > > > > > > > > > >> of Harvard slots.) > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> I seem to remember from somewhere that Bush Junior's > SATS > > > > > result > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > >> 660. I would think that Perle's score was probably > double > > > > that. > > > > > > I'd > > > > > > > > > love > > > > > > > > > > >to > > > > > > > > > > >> know. The concept of the IQ of individuals, while > useful > > > for > > > > > job > > > > > > > > > selection > > > > > > > > > > >> in many cases, is useless in the case of those of the > > > highest > > > > > > grade > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >> intelligence because they are at, or above, the IQ of > > those > > > > who > > > > > > > > concoct > > > > > > > > > IQ > > > > > > > > > > >> tests. Suffice it to say that it is my opinion, for > what > > it > > > > is > > > > > > > worth, > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > >> Perle's intelligence (and control of body language!) is > > of > > > > the > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > > >highest > > > > > > > > > > >> grade and it would be a formidable intellectual > exercise > > to > > > > > > debate > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > >him > > > > > > > > > > >> for any length of time. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Keith Hudson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > -------------- > > > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson,6 Upper Camden Place, Bath BA1 5HX, England > > > > > > > > > > Tel:01225 312622/444881; Fax:01225 447727; E-mail: > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Futurework mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
