I have been called anti-Semitic because I oppose right wing Israeli
actions so there
is a lot of learning that is needed and it is important that you express
your feelings
when you feel that another member of this list crosses over a line. I
agree that Keith
did so and feel it is an indication of the presence of anti-semitism [I
like to use the
word -Anti-Jewish since Arabs are Semites] on a wide scale. There is need
to talk
these things out and to educate other members of the list. I grew up in a
bigoted
household and have worked a lifetime to deal with my early childhood. I
certainly
have had a multitude of insensitivities and so, in attacking Keith, I
also would need
to be self-critical. I still am trying to deal with my anti-English
feelings [my Scotish-
Irish heritage].
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:49:30 +0200 "devorah" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Arthur, there are things that are simply not "light". In this
case,
> as Selma
> says, the attribution of qualities - good as
well as bad - to genes
> is the
> basis for racism and sexism in
their worst appearances on the
> world-stage.
> These are
dangerous 'isms' and shouldn't be handled 'lightly' - but
> eradicated.
Perhaps an even more important point is the fact that
> the
>
current policies of the government of Israel are extremely
> right-wing
in the
> sense of ultra-nationalist, uncompromising, and cruel. These
are
> policies
> that have to be opposed, loudly and strongly.
There are many people
> that are
> doing their best to counter
them, to struggle against them - think
> of Uri
> Avnery and Gush
Shalom, of Women in Black, of Yesh Gvul, and I could
> go on.
>
So what has all this to do with a general stereotype of Jews?
>
>
The fact that Cheney, Rumsfield, and Perle also share a perverse
>
dedication
> to capitalist driven politics, to statehood, to
power, means that
> there is
> an alliance of the right in
America to accomplish an unjust war, and
> to
> undermine the
UN.
> The supporters of Bush are about to perpetrate a catastrophe, but
> even as I
> condemn their policies and their deeds, I can hope
that they are not
> the sum
> total of "Americans". Still, that's
what they are - Americans. They
> are
> carrying out an American
policy. And nobody, not even an Englishman
> who is
> habituated
to hate-talk in pubs, has the right to assign
> anti-Jewish
>
stereotypes to the American politicians he singles out. No more
>
does he
> have the right to call Israeli politics Jewish politics.
Jewishness
> is a
> whole other dimension, just as is
Christianity, just as is Islam.
>
> Devorah
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Devorah
Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc.
> Faculty of Education
> University
of Haifa
> Haifa, Israel 31905
> Tel.:
+972-4-8249357
> Fax: +972-4-8240911
>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Additional phone:
> +972-4-8123605
>
> ----- Original
Message -----
> From: <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
To: <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
>
<
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc:
<
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 6:24 PM
> Subject: RE: [Futurework] An
apology requested ( was: Perle's body
> language)
>
>
> > I am trying to get us to "lighten up" Who among us does
not
> harbour
> > stereotypes of one sort or another?
The problem arises when we
> try to
> make
> > them
operational by referring to intelligence or, in the case of
>
athletes,
> > reflexes, etc. The problem also arises when we
bring these
> stereotypes
> into
> > the open.
>
>
> > In all our extended families we maintain the peace by NOT
> mentioning
> uncles
> > or aunts or brothers past
behaviour.
> >
> > In the global extended family we might do
well to maintain
> peaceful
> > relations and conversation by
not using stereotypes to justify the
> overt
> > behviour of
one group or another.
> >
> > arthur
> >
>
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
Selma Singer [
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:14 AM
> > To: Cordell, Arthur:
ECOM;
[EMAIL PROTECTED];
>
>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >
Cc:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's
>
body
> > language)
> >
> >
> > I disagree,
Arthur, that this is a trivial matter, and this is the
> kind
of
> > thing that frightens me so much on this list.
>
>
> > Selma
> >
> >
> > ----- Original
Message -----
> > From: <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> To: <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Cc: <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:11 AM
> > Subject: RE:
[Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's
> body
>
language)
> >
> >
> > > Keith is just being
British. He uttered out loud what is best
> kept in
>
the
> > > pub or club. He crossed the line. And (many)
Asians are whizzes
> at
> > > computers and maths.
And, etc. etc. sterotyping does go on.
> > >
> > > And
some of his best friends are probably Jews. Ashkenazei or
>
Sephardic.
> > > Who cares?
> > >
> > >
The heat of all this war talk is causing us to get upset.
>
Probably easy
> > to
> > > solve if we were face to face
in a pub where we could view body
> language
> > and
>
> > facial expressions (unless Perle were present)
> >
>
> > > And Carl Rove may really be (behind his pasty wasp
face) Carl
> Goldberg.
> > >
> > > Keith, this
is nonsense. Aplogize.
> > >
> > > btw, why
don't you like Perle? Because he seems to have total
>
control
> > over
> > > his emotions?
> >
>
> > > arthur
> > >
> > >
-----Original Message-----
> > > From: devorah [
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:16 AM
> > > To: Keith
Hudson
> > > Cc:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: [Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's
> body
> > > language)
> > >
> >
>
> > > No apology. The fact is that I never write in
upper-case, and
> the fact
> > that
> > > I felt
the need in this case just shows how carefully I read
> your
post.
> > The
> > > "some of my best friends" and the
distinction between Ashkenazi
> Jews and
> > > other Jews
-- which? -- are just the kinds of statements that
> signal the
>
> > anti-semite. As I wrote - whether in capitals or small letters,
> I found
> > your
> > > way of putting that you
dislike Perle and his influence on the
> current
> > >
American policy while talking about genes and the so-called
> >
accomplishments
> > > of Jews that you seem to think you know
about, offensive in the
> extreme
> to
> > > whoever
happens to have been born a Jew or happens to think of
> her /
>
> himself
> > > as a Jew. I don't think these are things that
can be apologized
> for /
> > > about - Read your own post
and do some heavy thinking if you
> don't like
> > the
>
> > way the message comes across.
> > > Devorah
Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc.
> > > Faculty of Education
>
> > University of Haifa
> > > Haifa,
Israel 31905
> > > Tel.:
+972-4-8249357
> > > Fax: +972-4-8240911
> > >
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Additional phone:
> > > +972-4-8123605
> >
>
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From:
"Keith Hudson" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
To: "devorah" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Cc: <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:39 PM
> > > Subject:
[Futurework] An apology requested ( was: Perle's body
>
language)
> > >
> > >
> > > >
Devorah,
> > > >
> > > > I don't like upper case
words being hurled at me in the way
> that you
> >
have
> > > > done.
> > > >
> > >
> I dislike Perle -- that should be obvious. I have a great
>
admiration
> > for
> > > > many Jews -- particularly
the Ashkenazi Jews from central
> Europe who
> > have
>
> > > not only survived great suffering and persecution but have
> also
> produced
> > a
> > > > great
proportion of the best ideas of the modern world.
> > >
>
> > > > A Jew helped me once in a time of great distress
and at his
> great cost
> > out
> > > > of a
sense of justice. Most of his family died at Auswitch. I
> will
>
> always
> > > > be grateful for his help.
> > >
>
> > > > I would request your apology when you have read my
posting
> more
> > carefully.
> > > > Then you
and I can resume sensible discussion.
> > > >
> > >
> Keith Hudson
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > > > At 12:13 17/03/03 +0200, you wrote:
>
> > > >Keith, was this supposed to be a rational analysis of the
> right-wing
> > > agenda
> > > > >that
is pushing Bush and, by the way, several hundred
> thousand
>
American
> > > > >soldiers into a deliberately planned war
for oil and power
> over the
> > > entire
> > >
> >continent of Asia? Since when does knowledge of details,
> knowledge
> of
> > > how
> > > >
>to manipulate the body, and where to register for a college
>
education
> > > come
> > > > >to people through
genes? And presumably genes that by some
> miracle of
> > >
> >skipping seas and generations, they have in common with the
>
current
> > > > >right-wing Israeli government? Obviously
you have an insight
> that
> goes
> > > far
>
> > > >beyond that.
> > > > >
> > >
> >YOUR COMMUNICATION IS A DEMONSTRATION OF SOMETHING I HAVE
> ALWAYS
> > DOUBTED
> > > > >EXISTED - A
VIVID AND VITRIOLIC TRANSLATION OF A POLITICAL
> ARGUMENT
> >
INTO
> > > > >RABID ANTI-SEMITISM.
> > > >
>
> > > > >WILL YOU MAKE THE SAME KIND OF ARGUMENTS IF
AND WHEN BUSH &
> CO DECIDE
> > TO
> > > >
>INVADE NORTH KOREA? APPARENTLY IMMIGRANTS FROM THE FAR EAST
> TO
THE US
> > > ALSO
> > > > >HAVE DANGEROUS GENES.
AND CONSIDERING THAT THEY HAVE BROUGHT
> THEIR
> >
GENES
> > > > >DIRECTLY TO THE STATES, THEY WILL BE IN AN
EVEN MORE
> VULNERABLE
> > POSITION.
> > > >
>
> > > > >Devorah
> > > > >
>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
>Devorah Kalekin-Fishman, Dr. Rer. Soc.
> > > > >Faculty
of Education
> > > > >University of Haifa
> > >
> >Haifa, Israel 31905
> > > >
>Tel.: +972-4-8249357
> > > > >Fax:
+972-4-8240911
> > > > >
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Additional phone:
> > > >
>+972-4-8123605
> > > > >
> > > >
>----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Keith
Hudson" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> >To: <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > >Cc: <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > > >Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 10:41 AM
> > >
> >Subject: [Futurework] Perle's body language, etc (was: It's
>
the
> > > > >testosterone)
> > > >
>
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hi
Lawry,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> At
15:55 16/03/03 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >> >Keith --
I missed the debate you refer to. Can you comment
> on how
> >
> Perle
> > > > >> >handled himself? Energy and
body language?
> > > > >> >
> > > >
>> >Thanks,
> > > > >> >L
> > >
> >>
> > > > >> Ah! Interesting question! Since
he's emerged from the mist,
> I've
> been
> > > >
>> thinking a great deal about Perle recently. David
> Dimbleby's
TV
> > > programmes
> > > > >> in the last
two/three weeks concerning Iraq have exhibited
> some of
> >
the
> > > > >> highest level debate that you're likely to
find on TV. On
> two
> > occasions
> > >
on
> > > > >> ITV (60 and 90 minute programmes) and one
on BBC (60
> minute
> > programme),
> > > >
>> Perle has been the main protagonist speaking (long-distance
>
video)
> > from
> > > > >> America while the
expert platform interlocutors (except
> for
> Dimbleby
>
> > > >> himself) have been different at this end in each
programme.
> I might
> > > also
> > > >
>> say that a great deal of care must have gone into the
>
selection of
> > the
> > > > >> studio
audiences. As far as I could judge, the most recent
> one
>
fairly
> > > > >> represented the 60/40 (No/Yes) split in
England. There were
> also
> > > several
> > >
> >> brilliant expert speakers seated on the front row of the
> audience.
> > > Perle
> > > > >> was
equal to any of them, audience or platform, except on a
>
couple
> of
> > > > >> occasions (more
later).
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
(Incidentally, let me illustrate my comment from yesterday
>
about
> the
> > > > >> "testosterone effect". A
week ago, the opposition to
> Blair's
> support
> > >
for
> > > > >> Bush was at around 65% in this country. A
YouGov
> (Internet-based)
> > poll
> > > >
>from
> > > > >> couple of days ago gave a 60/40
split. During yesterday's
> Dimbleby
> > > > >>
programme, a phone-in vote gave a 55/45 split. I think if a
>
poll
> were
> > > > >taken
> > > >
>> later on today or tomorrow morning [assuming that Bush
>
declares war
> > > then]
> > > > >I
> >
> > >> would guess that a poll would show a 50/50 or even a 45/55
> split in
> > > favour
> > > > >> of
war. This rapidly shifting opinion of about 20% is due,
> to my
>
> mind,
> > > to
> > > > >> the credulous
portion of the male population who are now
> being
> >
carried
> > > > >away
> > > > >> by the
excitement of events. However, I think this trend
> will
>
reverse
> > > > >> itself when women start expressing
themselves more
> forcefully in
> the
> > > >
>coming
> > > > >> weeks if there are large/gruesome
fatalities among the
> Iraqi
> > > civilians.)
> >
> > >>
> > > > >> (And now may I diverge just
one more time before I discuss
> Perle in
> > > >
>> particular? Here's a little bit about the neuropsychology
> of
body
> > > > >language.
> > > > >> Most
people are now aware that an individual being
> questioned will
>
> give
> > > > >> away his state of stress by
involuntary movements. For
> example, TV
> > > >
>> camerapeople have long ago cottoned onto this by giving
>
shots of
> > > > >> interlocutors' bobbing foot movements
when individuals are
> lying --
> > or
> > >
the
> > > > >> darting hand scratching the back of the
head, or ears, or
> nose.
> What
> > is
> >
> > >not
> > > > >> widely known, though, is
that the motor strip of the brain
> which
> > >
transmits
> > > > >> muscle movement commands [both
voluntary and involuntary]
> is far
> from
> > > >
>being
> > > > >> proportionate to the layout of the
body. In short, there
> are
> > relatively
> > >
> >few
> > > > >> nerves running to and from most
of the body -- feet, back,
> legs,
> > arms,
> > >
etc
> > > > >> -- but a very large number from the face
(particularly in
> and
> around
> > > the
>
> > > >> mouth) and hands (particularly fingertips). In terms
of
> numbers of
> > > brain
> > > > >>
cells involved, the nerve control (or lack of control under
>
stress)
> > of
> > > the
> > > > >>
mouth and fingers comprise 45% of all body movements. Thus,
> if
you
> > want
> > > to
> > > > >>
relax, it is stupid and time-consuming to go through all
> the
>
> systematic
> > > > >> procedures that
physiotherapists tell you to do [usually
> starting
> >
with
> > > > >> one's toes -- which have hardly any nerve
endings!]. You
> can
> > > short-circuit
> > >
> >> the whole tedious business by allowing one's mouth, lips
> and tongue
> > to
> > > > >> relax
[when your mouth will moisten slightly] and one's
> fingers and
>
> > > >> fingertips. You can achieve mental relaxation in two
or
> three
> seconds
> > > > >flat.
>
> > > >> Conversely, get those two areas under control and
you're in
> charge,
> > and
> > > >
>not
> > > > >> the interlocutor. Believe me, Perle
knows this well!)
> > > > >>
> > > >
>> Perle faces the camera directly with his elbows on a
>
suitable level
> > of
> > > > >desk
> >
> > >> or table, his forearms flat and one palm resting upon the
> other.
> You
> > > can
> > > >
>> see nothing else. His hands never move. His face is almost
>
immobile.
> > > His
> > > > >> mouth is
relaxed, almost smiling when he's not talking. He
> is in
> >
> perfect
> > > > >> control. The other interesting
feature of Perle under
> questioning
> is
> > >
that
> > > > >> he always delays his replies. There's a
perceptible delay
> of about
> > two
> > >
or
> > > > >> three seconds before replying to any
question, tricky or
> otherwise
> > > (after
> >
> > >> all, how does one know whether a simple question might not
> be
> tricky
> > > until
> > > >
>> it's examined carefully!). This mode of response is very
>
rare among
> > > > >> intellectuals (and is not usually
necessary) because they
> usually
> > > fire-off
>
> > > >> replies quicker than the average person ('cos their
brains
> are
> > faster)
> > > but
> >
> > >> this can get them into trouble quite often. (The
ex-UK-UN
> ambassador
> > I
> > > > >>
mentioned yesterday had also acquired this habit of
> delayed
>
> responses.)
> > > > >> This may seem a trivial piece
of behaviour but it's
> extremely
> > important
> >
> > >> because a delay dampens down one's immediate emotional
> reaction and
> > > allows
> > > > >>
sufficient time for rationalisation.
> > > > >>
>
> > > >> So there you are! I have never seen anyone on TV who's
> under such
> > > control.
> > > > >>
Perle seems perfectly relaxed. He smiles fairly frequently
> --
>
butter
> > > > >> wouldn't melt in his mouth. His voice
is always well
> modulated. I
> saw
> > >
only
> > > > >> two brief instances where Dimbleby on one
occasion and the
> > > ex-ambassador
> > > >
>on
> > > > >> another seemed to break through Perle's
facial control --
> revealing
> > > > >>
ultra-rapid flashes of anxiety which soon passed into
>
blandness.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The
only way I thought I could something of the real Perle
> and
what
> > his
> > > > >> deeper underlying agenda
might be was when he dealt with
> two other
> > >
matters
> > > > >> which were thrown at him quite
aggressively -- oil and
> Israel. Very
> > > >
>briefly
> > > > >> (after the usual delay!) he
cheerfully said that "Iraq's
> resources"
> > (he
> >
> > >> didn't use the oil word!) would, "of course, come under the
> control
> > of
> > > a
> > > >
>> new Iraqi government" (friendly to the US one assumes!), and
>
"of
> > > course",
> > > > >> the matter of a
Palestinian State would have to be
> considered soon.
> >
He
> > > > >> moved onto the main theme very quickly
after giving both of
> these
> > > > >> responses.
I thought that these glissades were cleverly
> done and
> >
> extremely
> > > > >> significant.
> > >
> >>
> > > > >> I am, as you know, prejudiced on
the oil issue, because I
> have
> > thought
> > >
> >that
> > > > >> this has been the main
motivation for the new war against
> Saddam
> > almost
>
> > > >> from the beginning. However, I have tended to
pooh-pooh the
> idea
> that
> > > >
>there
> > > > >> might be an American-Jewish
conspiracy involved -- which
> some are
> > > > >>
maintaining. After all, there are as many Jewish-American
> >
> intellectuals
> > > > >> who speak out against the
war (if not more) as in favour.
> However,
> in
> > >
the
> > > > >> way Perle dealt with the Israeli question
on the last
> Dimbleby
> > > programme,
> > >
> >I
> > > > >> detected more than a whiff that a
Jewish motivation is
> also
> involved
> > >
among
> > > > >> the group that is manipulating Bush --
Perle himself, of
> course,
> but
> > > also
>
> > > >> Wolfovitch and Rumsfeld. There's also a speech-writer
> called Feith
> > who
> > > > >went
>
> > > >> with Bush to the Azores and seems very influential --
much
> more
> than
> > > Colin
> > > >
>> Powell. I don't know whether he has Ashkenazi genes, but I
>
wouldn't
> > be
> > > > >> surprised.
>
> > > >>
> > > > >> I don't believe for
one moment that there is a
> well-defined
> > > >
>Jewish-American
> > > > >> conspiracy, but Ashkenazi
genes must feature very strongly
> in any
> > >
American
> > > > >> administration simply because their
IQ is so much higher
> than the
> > > average
> >
> > >> European/American white and a million or two of them came
> from
> Poland
> > > and
> > > >
>> central Russia a century ago. After all, 50% of those
>
entering
> > Harvard
> > > > >> University (to
choose one university) on the basis of SATS
> tests
> are
>
> > > >> Jewish-Americans and East Asian-Americans -- 5% of the
> American
> > > > >population.
> > >
> >> (Non-Jewish-American whites, comprising 75% of the
>
population, get
> > only
> > > > >25%
> >
> > >> of Harvard slots.)
> > > > >>
>
> > > >> I seem to remember from somewhere that Bush Junior's
SATS
> result
> was
> > > about
> > >
> >> 660. I would think that Perle's score was probably double
> that. I'd
> > > love
> > > >
>to
> > > > >> know. The concept of the IQ of
individuals, while useful
> for job
> > > selection
>
> > > >> in many cases, is useless in the case of those of the
> highest grade
> > of
> > > > >>
intelligence because they are at, or above, the IQ of those
>
who
> > concoct
> > > IQ
> > > > >>
tests. Suffice it to say that it is my opinion, for what it
>
is
> worth,
> > > that
> > > > >>
Perle's intelligence (and control of body language!) is of
> the
very
> > > > >highest
> > > > >> grade
and it would be a formidable intellectual exercise to
> debate
>
> with
> > > > >him
> > > > >> for
any length of time.
> > > > >>
> > > >
>> Keith Hudson
> > > >
> > > >
>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > --
> > > > --------------
> > > >
Keith Hudson,6 Upper Camden Place, Bath BA1 5HX, England
> > >
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