aoohralex,
On 16 Sep 2009, at 09:16, aoohralex wrote:
[...]
Carlton:
Not everybody needs layout ? :O Then somebody can delete 1 folder +
1 line
of code - I think this is faster than create folder + write 1 line.
What is
more - in Symfony Framework or in ASP.NET - we have layout !! In ZF
we don't
have layout - we must create layout.......
[...]
swilhelm:
I wanted only write about some uncomfortable things in ZF - I would
like to
download ZF and started writing - I hate configure anything.
I know little ZF, I used it little 1 year ago, but then somebody has
given
me fully configured ZF. Now I would like to do everything by myself
from
start to the end.
There's a few related points here but they seem to me to come down to
the trade off between a configuration-free set-up and flexibility.
Zend Framework is good for so much more than just web pages, and in
many of those contexts a layout isn't the best option. I have a whole
host of command line scripts which leverage Zend Framework and not one
of them uses Zend_Layout, although I guess they could... :-) In
general, anytime you want to access your model without all the window
dressing, AJAX requests (?), web services, scheduled tasks etc a
layout probably won't be appropriate.
Since the actions of adding a deleting a folder and a line of code are
basically symmetrical, I guess your thought that it's faster have a
layout included by default is based on the idea that the _default_
usage of Zend Framework is in building standard web sites. Even if we
grant that everybody who is building web sites using Zend Framework
wants to use Zend_Layout, I guess I'd say my point was that the other
use-cases are common enough to not want the framework to _dictate_
that the layout be part of the default project structure. (IF a set of
genuine best practices, rather than just opinions, could be formed for
"web projects" I would be happy to see Zend_Tool have a create
webProject command, but that's a big IF.)
Your response to swilhelm seems to hit the crux of the matter: you
hate to configure anything yet you want to do everything yourself from
start to finish -- well, which is it?
One of the big selling points of Zend Framework is that it doesn't
force you into any particular way of doing things, i.e. that it is
flexible. Where there are genuine best practices it offers sensible
defaults but because it targets those who want such flexibility it
_should not_ go further than that. As lessens are learnt over time,
the amount of configuration required to perform standard tasks in Zend
Framework is decreasing; this is a good thing but, given the projects
goals, there are always going to be other frameworks out there that
are able to do their one particular thing more easily. That's okay:
Zend Framework need not be all things to all people -- not everyone
need pay the cost in terms of configuration that Zend Framework's
flexibility requires. (i.e. use the tool that is best suited to the
job you have to do.)
Regards,
Carlton
