Vern Ceder wrote:
Actually we don't teach Python in elementary - the conference covers the
K12 space. We actually teach programming in the elementary grades with
Scratch at the moment. We have taught Python to 8th graders however, and
it's gone quite well.
I'm fairly sure you could teach a monkey to code in python as well. That
doesn't necessarily make it the best language to teach them, does it? :)
Out of curiosity, is it *Python* in elementary you find wrong, or is it
the idea of teaching programming? And if it's Python, what have you
found evil about teaching Python in the lower grades?
It is Python that I find wrong, not teaching children to program. In
fact, I believe all children should learn some form of programming or
scripting since it helps develop critical logic and reasoning skills --
skills I find are still surprisingly weak in many of my 'peers' in
industry, I might add.
The main problem I have with python itself is that whitespace *still*
matters in its syntax. To the best of my knowledge, we no longer use
punch cards for programming purposes anywhere in industry so that should
have been phased out long ago. I guess going a little deeper, the bigger
problem I have with it is that it is very unlike C & C++ (by DESIGN,
which makes it all that much worse), in contrast to comparable languages
like PHP and even perl to a lesser extent.
Moreover, I feel that teaching children a fringe language like python
will ultimately hurt them should they decide to become professional
software engineers more than anything, simply BECAUSE it doesn't conform
to common language conventions and makes 'converting' more difficult
since they've already been initiated into the python mindset.
Java is similar because in their quest for extremely re-usable code,
they usually end up importing tons of data structures unnecessarily,
which takes it's toll in the form of the humungous memory & cpu
footprint of their apps. If you want an example, try LSI's new raid
management software -- java-based, and it shows.
I'm not saying it isn't possible to write good programs in even fringe
languages; I'm just saying you better have a damn good reason to use a
fringe language in the first place, since there are going to be fewer
people using it outside of those non-fringe cases which are more easily
and better covered by mainstream languages. (Ex: the 'R' is great for
statistics people, but just try using it to write system software, or
non-statistical games of any sort)
I realize some of what I said may not be terribly clear, so feel free to
ask questions. I'm going to stop typing now though, because years of
slashdotting have shown that these kinds of things can easily degrade
into language wars, and I'm a lover not a fighter :)
Cheers,
Vern
Nemo Nihil wrote:
Teaching python in ELEMENTARY? That is sooo wrong...
Well, I guess it could be worse -- you could've been pushing java :)
Andrew Latham wrote:
What about at MA anniversary prices?
Andrew "lathama" Latham
TuxTone Inc.
http://TuxTone.com
[email protected]
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Vern Ceder
<[email protected]> wrote:
Hmmmm... at DC restaurant prices it wouldn't be a huge party... ;)
Andrew Latham wrote:
How many beers is that?
Andrew "lathama" Latham
TuxTone Inc.
http://TuxTone.com
[email protected]
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Vern Ceder
<[email protected]>
wrote:
Hey,
I'm pleased to report that the Python Software Foundation board
has voted
to
give me a grant of $500 to help cover my travel to the National
Educational
Computing Conference (NECC) this June to give a presentation on
teaching
Python programming in K12 schools. They don't give out that many
grants,
so
I'm feeling pretty special... ;)
Cheers,
Vern
--
This time for sure!
-Bullwinkle J. Moose
-----------------------------
Vern Ceder, Director of Technology
Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804
[email protected]; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137
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--
This time for sure!
-Bullwinkle J. Moose
-----------------------------
Vern Ceder, Director of Technology
Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804
[email protected]; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137
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