First of all well done on earning that vern. I won't side either way on this. I like python, But i learned several other languages before I started using it. But with python it makes you program beautifully :). I would say your point about libraries could be valid, but if you learn how to use the properly then it really does not apply. I just gone done converting a php script into python. the python one seams to run much faster than the php scrip did.
I will have to agree that JAVA is crippled, i used to like it but it is soo slow. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Nemo Nihil <[email protected]> wrote: > Vern Ceder wrote: >> >> Actually we don't teach Python in elementary - the conference covers the >> K12 space. We actually teach programming in the elementary grades with >> Scratch at the moment. We have taught Python to 8th graders however, and >> it's gone quite well. > > I'm fairly sure you could teach a monkey to code in python as well. That > doesn't necessarily make it the best language to teach them, does it? :) > >> >> Out of curiosity, is it *Python* in elementary you find wrong, or is it >> the idea of teaching programming? And if it's Python, what have you found >> evil about teaching Python in the lower grades? > > It is Python that I find wrong, not teaching children to program. In fact, I > believe all children should learn some form of programming or scripting > since it helps develop critical logic and reasoning skills -- skills I find > are still surprisingly weak in many of my 'peers' in industry, I might add. > > The main problem I have with python itself is that whitespace *still* > matters in its syntax. To the best of my knowledge, we no longer use punch > cards for programming purposes anywhere in industry so that should have been > phased out long ago. I guess going a little deeper, the bigger problem I > have with it is that it is very unlike C & C++ (by DESIGN, which makes it > all that much worse), in contrast to comparable languages like PHP and even > perl to a lesser extent. > > Moreover, I feel that teaching children a fringe language like python will > ultimately hurt them should they decide to become professional software > engineers more than anything, simply BECAUSE it doesn't conform to common > language conventions and makes 'converting' more difficult since they've > already been initiated into the python mindset. > > Java is similar because in their quest for extremely re-usable code, they > usually end up importing tons of data structures unnecessarily, which takes > it's toll in the form of the humungous memory & cpu footprint of their apps. > If you want an example, try LSI's new raid management software -- > java-based, and it shows. > > I'm not saying it isn't possible to write good programs in even fringe > languages; I'm just saying you better have a damn good reason to use a > fringe language in the first place, since there are going to be fewer people > using it outside of those non-fringe cases which are more easily and better > covered by mainstream languages. (Ex: the 'R' is great for statistics > people, but just try using it to write system software, or non-statistical > games of any sort) > > I realize some of what I said may not be terribly clear, so feel free to ask > questions. I'm going to stop typing now though, because years of > slashdotting have shown that these kinds of things can easily degrade into > language wars, and I'm a lover not a fighter :) > >> >> Cheers, >> Vern >> >> Nemo Nihil wrote: >>> >>> Teaching python in ELEMENTARY? That is sooo wrong... >>> >>> Well, I guess it could be worse -- you could've been pushing java :) >>> >>> Andrew Latham wrote: >>>> >>>> What about at MA anniversary prices? >>>> >>>> >>>> Andrew "lathama" Latham >>>> >>>> TuxTone Inc. >>>> http://TuxTone.com >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Vern Ceder >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hmmmm... at DC restaurant prices it wouldn't be a huge party... ;) >>>>> >>>>> Andrew Latham wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> How many beers is that? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Andrew "lathama" Latham >>>>>> >>>>>> TuxTone Inc. >>>>>> http://TuxTone.com >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Vern Ceder >>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm pleased to report that the Python Software Foundation board has >>>>>>> voted >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> give me a grant of $500 to help cover my travel to the National >>>>>>> Educational >>>>>>> Computing Conference (NECC) this June to give a presentation on >>>>>>> teaching >>>>>>> Python programming in K12 schools. They don't give out that many >>>>>>> grants, >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I'm feeling pretty special... ;) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Vern >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> This time for sure! >>>>>>> -Bullwinkle J. Moose >>>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>>> Vern Ceder, Director of Technology >>>>>>> Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 >>>>>>> [email protected]; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Fwlug mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> http://fortwaynelug.org/mailman/listinfo/fwlug_fortwaynelug.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Fwlug mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://fortwaynelug.org/mailman/listinfo/fwlug_fortwaynelug.org >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> This time for sure! >>>>> -Bullwinkle J. Moose >>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>> Vern Ceder, Director of Technology >>>>> Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 >>>>> [email protected]; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Fwlug mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://fortwaynelug.org/mailman/listinfo/fwlug_fortwaynelug.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Fwlug mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fortwaynelug.org/mailman/listinfo/fwlug_fortwaynelug.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Fwlug mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fortwaynelug.org/mailman/listinfo/fwlug_fortwaynelug.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Fwlug mailing list > [email protected] > http://fortwaynelug.org/mailman/listinfo/fwlug_fortwaynelug.org > _______________________________________________ Fwlug mailing list [email protected] http://fortwaynelug.org/mailman/listinfo/fwlug_fortwaynelug.org
