Hi Sam,
I'd like to see the original study. This review of the original
research is written for cleaning kitchens, and kitchens are not the
same as herp environments. Another caveat I have in applying this to
herps would be that these three bacteria are only a small blip of the
large assortment of nasties that can pop up in the herp terrarium. I do
understand the concern about bleach and toxicity. The room I use for
sterilization has an overhead fan which is on the entire time bleach is
present. I then make sure terrariums are fully rinsed and aired out
(usually overnight) and do not have any bleach scent at all when I
reuse the terrarium. It has been suggested in this forum to use
hydrogen peroxide to follow up cleaning with 10% bleach solution to
reduce any residue.
For everyday spot cleaning I use Quatricide, an effective, non-harsh
cleaner. I have used it with the 80+ species of geckos and lizards I
have kept, have not lost one following introduction to a
Quatricide-treated cage. I have not lost any to bleach-treated terraria
either. The nice thing about Quatricide is that you just spray, wipe it
out and you are done. I have even used it with herps in the terrarium
when they were well out of the way. I have been following the 10%
bleach regimen for 23 years with my herps since it was recommend by
non-domestic veterinarians at UC Davis where I went to college. I keep
checking in periodically with the vets at UCD and also my neighbor who
is the head of the UC Davis Poison Control Center (she has a
pharmacology Phd and treats all kinds of nasties affecting people) to
see if there is anything more effective and available for the average
person to use. They keep telling me 10% bleach is the way to go. I will
present some research here soon so you can all make up your own minds
about this.
Julie Bergman
GGA lifetime member
www.geckoranch.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Julie/Scubadug,
Here is a site that'll explain how and why hydrogen peroxide is better
than chlorine bleach.
http://my.execpc.com/~mjstouff/articles/vinegar.html
The tests were done at Virginia Polytechnic Institue and State
University. The tests found that when hydrogen peroxide and vinegar
were used as disinfectants that it killed almost all Salmonella,
Shigella / E. Coli bacteria.
Here is a direct quote from the site:
"...making this spray
combination (Hydrogen peroxide and vinegar)more effective at killing
these potentially lethal bacteria than chlorine bleach or any
commercially available kitchen cleaner."
Also the FDA warns us about
the cancerous affects of using chlorine bleach.
Now in all honesty their is research proving hydrogen peroxide being
better over chlorine bleach and vice versa. You'll find many different
views and results on these two types of disinfectants.
Regards,
-Sam
Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage
Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
Date: 1/27/2004 10:20:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent from the Internet
Hi Sam,
I have to completely agree with what Doug said here. I am sorry you
were offended. Please don't mistake our strong advocacy for proper
sterilization procedures personally. There are lots of newbies on this
list and it is important to give them the best information available.
After all, this is what the GGA is all about, education for the
betterment of gex.
After keeping herps for some time, you will find their health is not a
static situation as Doug astutely pointed out. It is a constant battle
to keep gex environments free of threating organisms. You can really
never relax about this, and you can't send the second or third teams
out to win the superbowl. ;)
Julie Bergman
GGA lifetime member
www.geckoranch.com
Doug Johnston wrote:
Sam...
First of all, please do not hold back your input. That is what this
list is all about. Dialog always has two sides to it. My response was
not intended to be aggressive, though I figured you'd take it that way.
People who get corrected usually do! You are certainly welcome to your
opinions, but I think if you did some very minimal web searching (what
I did), you'd find what Julie and I said is absolutely correct. We
responded like we did because we are always advocates for the animals
above all else. Keep in mind that even healthy animals will shed
parasites and their eggs. If you do not disinfect the cage adequately,
they can reinfect the animals (at least those with a direct life
cycle). Healthy animals can usually handle this, but introduce a
stressor and the parasites can then bloom and you have a problem.
I guess I should stop now... you probably won't listen anyway!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Julie/Scubadug,
I've heard of quatricide, and it is readily available.
I guess when dealing with really sick herps then you guys may be right
that something stronger would be needed. However I have a full
collection of healthies on my hand, and the hydrogen peroxide is
working great with me. The reason i mentioned hydrogen peroxide to the
person that was inquiring about methods of cleaning tanks was because
for regular cleaning for healthy leos this would be fine. If the person
however asked for a disinfectant because she's got a really sick
reptile then i would've left it up to others to recommend more powerful
disinfectants that have worked for them. We all know that different
parasites, bacteria etc. require different disinfectants, simply having
one will not necessarily kill off everything.
No need to get nasty here, and hound people for their methods, or
choices they prefer to disinfect their enclosures, what works for some
may not work for others, simple as that.
Scubadug, I think you should relax, and try to get your point across in
a much more calm fashion.
Wow, didn't know this place could get so aggressive........I'm gonna
think twice before I put my two cents in next time.
Happy herping all
-Sam
Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage
Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
Date: 1/26/2004 10:39:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent from the Internet
Hi Sam,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Hi Julie,
I guess every vets got their own opinion, as two of my very well known
vets here in Ontario have recommended hydrogen peroxide over the 10%
bleach solution. They're who introduced me to it in the first place.
Man! That is not too good to hear as there is plenty of research to
back up that hydrogen peroxide is a poor disinfectant. The vet I was
consulting, an exceptional non-domestic vet, also mentioned that
hydrogen peroxide was NOT federally approved as a disenfectant. That
may not mean much in Canada. ;)
I myself really enjoy using it as a disinfectant, it's quick and easy
and gets the job done. No heavy lifting of the tanks to the bath
involved. :)
There are other alternatives to 10% bleach solution. Quarternary
ammonia, or Quatricide (Quat, brand names vary), is a great spot
cleaner and shown to be more effective than hydrogen peroxide.
Quatricide is readily available, cost effective (depends on where you
buy it, what brand name) easy to use and will kill more bugs than
hydrogen peroxide. I would not want anyone here to use hydrogen
peroxide when there are so many other better choices. I have only
mentioned one. I know Bean Farm sells Novalsan for example. Maybe Pro
Exotics has some research to back up their new product someone
mentioned here. Knowing Chad Brown, owner of Pro Exotics, he would
certainly not offer anything that was not shown to be effective and
safe within herper standards.
To each their own i guess.
You mentioned, "gets the job done." If the job is not done as well as
other products available, what does that mean to your geckos? Germs,
viruses, parasites, bacteria are stuff we cannot see and we must rely
on competent research to help us have confidence that the job is
getting done for the health of our gex.
Julie Bergman
GGA lifetime member
www.geckoranch.com
Thanks for the info however, always welcomed :)
-Sam
Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
Date: 1/22/2004 11:58:37 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent from the Internet
Sam, I just checked with a non-domestic vet I know about this and she
said hydrogen peroxide was a "poor microbiocide overall compared to
most others (chlorine, quaternary ammonias and other commonly used
disinfectants)." Quatricide is a quaternary ammonia. She did say,
however, that folks keeping aquatic terraria are using it to "reduce
potential toxicity issues with other disinfectants (for example in
amphibian terraria)." She thought the best thing out there was the 10%
bleach solution. Just an FYI!
Julie B.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Many people use 5 or 10% bleach/water solution to clean out their
tanks, and love it.
For the past 7 months now, I however have been using hydrogen peroxide,
and am so happy that I found out about it! It saves me loads of time,
and it gets the job done with no problems! Seems that this disinfectant
is catching a lot of herpers attention recently :)
All I do is spray, wait 30 seconds, and wipe dry!
-Sam
Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
Date: 1/2/2004 11:32:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent from the Internet
That depends, are you doing a clean with the gex inside or a
sterilization? For a quick spot clean with the gex inside (gex you
cannot easily remove like Phelsuma) or a quick overall clean I use
Quatricide (generic equivalent from Smart and Final). It is about $6
for a gallon of concentrate. This is the same stuff sold by the brand
name reptile folks, just read the label, it is even the same
concentrate.
For that complete sterilization nothing beats a 10% bleach to water
solution. After that is all rinsed out then I got for the vinegar to
get rid of the hard water spots.
Julie B.
Mark &Robyn Rivera wrote:
Was wondering what cage cleaning solution people are using out there?
Also does anyone use Miracle Grow fertilizer on their tank plants and
would that have any vapor that might be harmful to geckos?
--
Doug Johnston
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/scubadug
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