+2 absolutely, we need a good starting point and dbXML. appears to be the logical place. I am not sure about Boo Boo though. Thanks Bill Klenk
-----Original Message----- From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 7:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [vote] A native XML database project under Apache +1. We need to start somewhere. dbXML is as good a starting place as anything else... Thanks, dims --- Carsten Ziegeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Absolutely +1. > > It might be a little bit difficult, if the project starts with dbXML > as a base to switch over to the "real" solution (I don't want to > say that dbXML is bad, I even don't know it, but it's often the > case when some new people are involved that they find a different > solution etc.) > > But as having a base which you can discuss on is thousand times > better than creating lots of theoretical threads with no praxis > behind it, this should be the way to go. But there need to be > some strong personalities in the project which are able to > fulfill that job. > > Carsten > > > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > while the world of native XML databases is full of marketing hype and > > promises, it is evident (for all those who tried) that mapping general > > XML schemas to relational databases can be sometimes very painful and > > not very efficient. > > > > In fact, it is widely recognized from the database research community > > that while well structured can be easily and efficiently mapped to a > > relational database, less structured (often called semi-structured) data > > is much more difficult to map. > > > > Don't get me wrong: there are a number of way to store XML in a database > > to add ACID properties to XML documents, but while this is a > > straightforward process for very repeatitive and well structured schemas > > (invoices, stock quotes, money transactions), it is not so for > > semi-structured schemas such as DocBook, SVG or even XSLT. > > > > I here you say: I use BLOBS and I'm fine with them. I'm sure you are, > > but in all honesty, I'm not. And for a few reasons: > > > > 1) each documentation system requires a repository for document. This is > > often called "content management system". Since publishing is going > > toward replacing all content with an XML syntax (and we all love to see > > that happening in full extend), we must consider that such a system will > > require a persistent way to manage the content and a fast and efficient > > way to query it. > > > > If you use BLOBS you loose an efficient way to look into the blobs > > themselves so you are doomed before you even start. > > > > You can fragment the XML document into relational mapping to > > semi-structured data (and remember that documentation is almost always > > semi-structured!) but it can be shown that this is hard, very expensive > > and might require (depending on the document schema) a very high number > > of nested queries to translate even a very simple XPath expression. > > > > Add complexities such as namespaces and the proposed XQL and you see > > that a XQL -> SQL might well be possible but is clearly going to become > > a nightmare to manage and very painful to optimize for efficiency. > > > > The remaining solution is to create a specific solution that leaves > > structured data to RDBMS (where they really shine, no question about it) > > but moves semi-structured data over to a more specific and > > algorithmically optimized system. > > > > Note that while ODBMS were supposed to solve the problem of > > semi-structured data, they, in fact, do not. > > > > This is why we need a native XML DB solution with full support for > > namespaced content, XPath and XQL for querying, RDF for metadata. > > > > 2) so, the content management system that everybody is crying out loud > > for requires a storage solution and I believe that a native XML DB is > > the way to go. > > > > Also because: > > > > 3) if we ever want to get deeper into the semantic web (and I, > > personally, want), we must forget well structured data. Vocabularies > > such as RDF, RDFSchema, Topic Maps and the like are *not* going to be > > easily mapped into relational databases and efficiently searched. > > > > So, this is why I propose the creation of a project hosted here under > > xml.apache.org to implement this effort. > > > > Since it's generally very hard to bootstrap an open development > > community without some code to start working on, I suggest to start this > > project over the code that the dbXML guys are willing to donate to the > > ASF in order to create such development community that can research and > > implement in this new field and, by doing so, hopefully lead the way > > reducing the marketing crap and the hype around this. > > > > FYI, dbXML (www.dbxml.org) is an implementation of a native XML database > > written in the Java language that is close to reaching its first final > > release. > > > > I've been talking to one of the community leaders (here copied) that > > independently came out with my same conclusion and wanted to propose > > dbXML for donation even before I expressed my intentions. > > > > Also Sam Ruby has been subscribed to their development list watching > > over them. > > > > dbXML was created with the sponsor of a commercial entity called "dbXML > > Group" which still exists but has no economic energy to continue its > > development and the main developers are now working on the project > > unpaid. > > > > But I'd like something to be clear: I'm *NOT* proposing that Apache > > takes over 'dbXML group' to save dbXML and continue its development. I'm > > proposing that Apache creates a new project for the creation of a > > production quality native XML database solution that implements existing > > and future standards (and hopefully have the power to influence their > > establishment) and that in order to help bootstrap the community, we > > start with the current dbXML implementation which is going to be donated > > to the ASF. > > > > To show this and to avoid confusion with past releases and the "dbXML > > group" commercial entity, the project is *NOT* going to be called Apache > > dbXML, but rather something without acronims, in the spirit of > > xml.apache.org. > > > > Kimbro and I have been talking about "Apache BooBoo", but that is just > > the first name that crossed my mind :) If you have better names, please, > > let us discuss this publicly if the deal gets approuved. > > > > Anyway, the dbXML folks are willing to donate the code, to change the > > name as long as we give proper credit to "dbXML group" for having > > bootstrapped and donated the code (as we do for IBM, Lotus, Sun and > > others), and more than willing to help in both development, user > > support, research, community and evangelization. In fact, if the deal is > > accepted by this list, they are even willing to close down the site and > > move everything overhere with the new name. > > > > Let me finish by saying that I do not consider important what the actual > > code implementation is (few, myself included, might not like some of > > their architectural choices, such as the use of CORBA and Jaggernaut), > > but I'm *NOT* asking for a vote on their _actual_ technological status, > > I'm asking for a vote to create a community that can create, maintain > > and show the power of a native XML DB solution. > > > > It might takes years to have something solid enough to compete with big > > commercial names, but it is important, IMO, for Apache to have something > > to say even on this front by creating a community and attracting people > > and their ideas. > > > > In fact, the dbXML guys are willing to donate the code, but also very > > happy about the possibility of a higher visibility that would bring more > > people and more ideas into the design process that is going to happen > > for their next major release. > > > > So, people, I'm asking you to judge the idea to create a community, > > rather than the current dbXML implementation which is only a way to give > > to users the meat the look for in that area, but then attract them for > > new development and further research. > > > > Sorry for the long mail. > > > > Please, place your vote. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Stefano. > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ===== Davanum Srinivas - http://jguru.com/dims/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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