On Wednesday 26 November 2003 03:54, Adrian Pirciu wrote: > Dude, you don't know what you're talking about, really. To delete a > file = to mark a file "deleted". There are 2 cases: > > 1. just mark the file as deleted and then use the space whenever > needed: > - pros: speed (you just have to write a few bytes to mark a file for > deletion, on fat systems just 1 byte afaik), undeleting stuff (if you > are telling me that you never needed an undelete program.. well..) > > - cons: some other unwanted people might undelete stuff you don't want > to have undeleted...
1b) and remove the pointers to the data thus unallocating the inodes. So, the inodes are not marked as deleted, but marked as unused/free space. > 2. delete entire file (like overwriting the space occupied by the > deleted data it with other garbage data) > - pros: fewer chance of undeletion (NOT null-chances, since with > proper (expensive) equipment, somebody might still recover the data.. > incredible isn't it ? that's why many programs let you choose how > many times to overwrite the deleted portion ... (even hundreds of > times) > > - cons: SPEED !!! if the system would have to overwrite every file you > delete, the writing speed would be half on deletion !! (example: to > delete 1 700MB movie on my system would take 0.01 sec at most for > case 1 and about 20-30 secs for case2) and the third dos/windows FAT way: just add a special charackter to the name and don't show it to the user anymore, but have it still in the FAT OR shove it into the trashcan. > Linux and Windows and any system which cares about itself and its > users should use the first variant by default, letting the users > choose if they want that kind of security like file shredded by other > programs.. At least on ext2 it is possible to undelete stuff, and > maybe on the others too, but nobody really cared to design such > programs... in ext2 you have a bitmap of the inodes and a well known structure. This making undelete a complicate but doable process, scanning for unallocated inodes, checking them and dump them into lost&found. Reiser with its B*-trees is something different, at the latest when you hit packed tails. > by the way, deleting a file will not put it in linux (by default at > least) in "a hidden dir". The space which is marked as deleted can be > used by the system at any time, and it appears as "free space" (not > like windows recycle bin). Maybe I was not clear. I am familar to the different ways of deleting a file. But I think that simple renaming/shoving it into a hidden dir, can not be called 'deleting'. Additionally there seems to be a huge intervall between 'deleting' and 'overwriting' in windows, apart from this 'trashcan' crap wich has nothing to do with deleting at all. With linux, unmount/remounting ro could be (and in a lot of cases will be) enough to overwrite the freed inodes. If something is 'deleted' it should be gone from the fs point of view (like in linux). Not hidden from the user with a nifty charackter or in a special dir (like in dos or windows). So to install a tool, simple to unhidde and/or delete this hidden files is only a weak patch for a imho borked design. A tool to 'increase' your feeling of secured privacy may be a fine thing, but a) after you copied some files to the partition, it should not be necessary anymore and b) with this nice journaling fs.. are you sure, that th write-command really hits the platters? I am not man. That you can do some forensics on harddisks is a completly different topic and if you have the money to buy the hard&software to do that, or pay a labor to do it for you, you also have the money for a more than decent backup solution, rendering the whole topic useless. > If I didn't understand you correctly, please excuse me. > > On Wednesday 26 November 2003 04:33, Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote: > > On Tuesday 25 November 2003 19:31, Oliver Lange wrote: > > > Redeeman wrote: > > > > its not a minus, its also a feature, sometimes if i delete data > > > > i really want it to disappear! > > > > > > Well if i want to delete a file forever, there are many tools out > > > there which do the job. For example, Krusader offers a "shred" > > > command, other tools work from the console. These tools overwrite > > > the whole file with Null-Bytes before deleting them. > > > > that is the same like buying a car.. and buying a second one for > > left turns... > > > > If I delete a file, I want it to be gone. Nothing else. > > > > rm means remove not 'park this in a hidden dir' or 'obfuscate the > > name'. > > > > That windows does not realy 'delete' but merely renames and > > overwrites files, is only an additional sign for windos weak > > design. Undeleting there is not a feature, but a way to exploit the > > shortenings of fat. > > > > > -- > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list > > -- -- Conclusions In a straight-up fight, the Empire squashes the Federation like a bug. Even with its numerical advantage removed, the Empire would still squash the Federation like a bug. Accept it. -Michael Wong -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
