Dear Alan, I agree. Your statement is more accurate.
Oliver On Dec 7, 2:25 pm, Alan Robock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear Oliver, > > I agree with everything in your message, except your claim that "We seek > through geoengineering to reduce or reverse some of these side effects." > I would say, rather, "We seek to discuss geoengineering, whether and how > it could be used to reduce or reverse some of these side effects, and to > evaluate both its potential benefits and problems." > > Your statement is that everyone on this forum has agreed that > geoengineering is a good idea, and that is not the case. > > Alan > > Alan Robock, Professor II > Director, Meteorology Undergraduate Program > Associate Director, Center for Environmental Prediction > Department of Environmental Sciences Phone: +1-732-932-9800 x6222 > Rutgers University Fax: +1-732-932-8644 > 14 College Farm Road E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8551 USA http://envsci.rutgers.edu/~robock > > On Sun, 7 Dec 2008, Oliver Wingenter wrote: > > > Dear David, > > > Your arguments remind me about how Fred Singer tried to convince us > > that CFC where not harmful to stratospheric ozone. He ended up > > wasting a lot of people?s time such as Sherry Rowland?s, Ralph > > Cicerone, Mike Prather and others by refuting his articles. > > > However, to reiterate Ken's email, the premise of this group is global > > warming is causing climate change. We seek through geoengineering to > > reduce or reverse some of these side effects such as Arctic ice > > melting, sea level rise, etc. It is my opinion that your discussions > > on whether or not the Earth's temperature is rising or not, although > > of interest to many, belongs in another forum. I cannot afford to > > spend any more time discussing issues outside of geoengineering with > > you in this Google group. > > > Sincerely, > > > Oliver Wingenter > > > On Dec 6, 2:33 pm, "David Schnare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Oliver and Mike: > > >> I'm a climate change agnostic, and am openly supportive of Geo-Nurtring, > >> including activities such as solar radiation management and rebalancing the > >> carbon cycle, which would surely include energy conservation. > > >> The problem I have faced comes when someone like Prof. Jagadish Shukla, > >> Ph.D., at the Center for Ocean, Land and Atmospheric Studies, attempted to > >> undermine my promotion of research on solar radiation management by > >> claiming > >> that the scientific underpinning is too uncertain to allow its use. My > >> response argument is that the identical GCMs used to project climate change > >> are used to project the effects of solar radiation management. Then, > >> individuals with a dog in this fight argue that, indeed, all the > >> projections > >> are too uncertain to provide a firm basis for the kinds of actions climate > >> alarmist demand. > > >> My view is that all this uncertainty should result in application of the > >> policy paradigm typically used to address potential, but perhaps not yet > >> manifest threats public health - the insurance paradigm. This approach > >> requires development of tools for use when the threat is manifest, but > >> otherwise only marginal responses until the uncertainties can be brought > >> into reasonable limits. [And, Ken, that is why this discussion is not about > >> whether climate change can or should be attributed to mankind, which we all > >> agree should be on some other discussion platform, but rather is about the > >> quality of the science needed to support actions, including solar radiation > >> management with large, deep and broad economic consequences, both positive > >> and negative.) > > >> Mike MacCracken is completely correct with regard to some of the > >> uncertainties. There do appear to be systematic feedbacks that would > >> prevent a 100 deg. C temperature increase or decrease. Indeed, some argue > >> that the feedbacks would prevent anything more than 10 deg shifts. > >> Nevertheless, it's the 2 to 5 deg C shifts that concern me, and our > >> uncertainty as to whether these will arise (in either direction, by the > >> way, > >> as the adverse effects of a significant drop in temperature are potentially > >> as bad as a similar increase). The uncertainty remains so large that I > >> don't see a basis to apply anything other than the insurance paradigm > >> (which, by the way, reflects the precautionary principle, but is not > >> hostage > >> to that principle). > > >> Finally, for those of you interested in the Huntsville program, perhaps > >> John > >> Christy's work is the more accessible material. He heads the program and > >> Roy Spencer is one of his staff. Here's a list of John's relevant > >> publications on the temperature data set, leading off with the ones that > >> discuss the relationship of the Huntsville data to that of other sources, > >> and to projections. Note, although they spend a great deal of time > >> measuring tropospheric temperatures, they measure and report surface > >> temperatures for both land and ocean in their data sets. > > >> Cheers, > >> David. > > >> Pubs link:http://www.nsstc.uah.edu/atmos/christy_pubs.html > > >> * Christy, J.R. and R.W.Spencer, 2005: Correcting temperature data sets. > >> Science, 310, 972. > > >> * Douglass, D.H., J.R. Christy, B.D. Pearson and S.F. Singer, 2007: A > >> comparison of tropical temperature trends with model predictions. > >> International J. Climatology, DOI: 10.1002/joc.1651. > >> (pdf)<http://www.nsstc.uah.edu/atmos/christy/2007_Dougless_etal.pdf> > > >> * Christy, J.R. and W.B. Norris, 2006: Satellite and VIZ-Radiosonde > >> intercomparisons for diagnosis on non-climatic influences. J. Atmos. Oc. > >> Tech., 23, 1181 ? 1194. > > >> * Spencer, R.W., J.R. Christy, W.D. Braswell and W.B. Norris, 2006: > >> Estimation of tropospheric temperature trends from MSU channels 2 and 4. J. > >> Atmos. Oc. Tech., 23, 417-423. > > >> * Christy, J.R., 2006: The ever-changing climate system. Cumberland Law > >> Review, 36 No. 3, 493-504, > > >> * Christy, J.R., W.B. Norris, K. Redmond and K. Gallo, 2006: Methodology > >> and > >> results of calculating central California surface temperature trends: > >> Evidence of human-induced climate change? J. Climate, 19, 548-563. > > >> * Christy, J.R. and R.W.Spencer, 2005: Correcting temperature data sets. > >> Science, 310, 972. > > >> * Christy, J.R. and W.B. Norris, 2004: What may we conclude about > >> tropospheric temperature trends? Geophys. Res. Lett., 31, No. 6, L0621. > > >> * Christy, J.R. and R.W. Spencer, 2003: Reliability of satellite data sets. > >> Science, 301, 1046-1047. > > >> * Christy, J.R., 2003: Climate Research - Response to "Wanted Scientific > >> Leadership on Climate" by Pielke, Jr. and Sarewitz. Issues in Science and > >> Technology. Spring 2003, 9-10. > > >> * Christy, J.R., R.W. Spencer, W.B. Norris, W.D. Braswell and D.E. Parker, > >> 2003: Error estimates of Version 5.0 of MSU/AMSU bulk atmospheric > >> temperatures. J. Atmos. Oceanic Tech. 20, 613-629. > > >> * Christy, J.R., 2002: When was the hottest summer? A State Climatologist > >> struggles for an answer. Bull. Amer. Met. Soc. 83, 723-734. > > >> * Christy, J.R., D.E. Parker, S.J. Brown, I. Macadam, M. Stendel and W.B. > >> Norris, 2001: Differential trends in tropical sea surface and atmospheric > >> temperatures. Geophys. Res. Lett. 28, 183-186. > > >> * Winter, A., O. Tadamichi, H. Ishioroshi, T. Watanabe and J. R. Christy, > >> 2000: A two-to-three degree cooling of Caribbean sea surface temperatures > >> during the Little Ice Age. Geophys. Res. Lett., 27, 3365-3368. > > >> * Hurrell, J., S.J. Brown, K.E. Trenberth and J.R. Christy, 2000: > >> Comparison > >> of tropospheric temperatures from radiosondes and satellites: 1979-1998. > >> Bull. Amer. Met. Soc., 81, 2165-2177. > > >> * Gaffen, D.J., B.D. Santer, J.S. Boyle, J.R. Christy, N.E. Graham, R.J. > >> Ross, 2000: Multidecadal changes in the vertical structure of the tropical > >> troposphere. Science, 287, 1242-1245. > > >> * Christy, J.R., 2000: Global Climate Change: Scientific and Social > >> Impacts. > >> Bridges. 7, 39-57. > > >> * Christy, J.R., R.W. Spencer, and W.D. Braswell, 2000: MSU Tropospheric > >> temperatures: Data set construction and radiosonde comparisons. J. Atmos. > >> Oceanic Tech. 17,1153-1170. > > >> * Stendel, M., J.R. Christy and L. Bengtsson, 2000: Assessing levels of > >> uncertainty in recent temperature time series. Climate Dynamics, 16(8), > >> 587-601. > >> * Christy, J.R., R.W. Spencer, and E. Lobl, 1998 Analysis of the merging > >> procedure for the MSU daily temperature time series. J. Climate, 11, > >> 2016-2041. > > >> * Christy, J.R., R.W. Spencer, and D. Braswell, 1997 How accurate are > >> satellite 'thermometers'?, Nature, 389, 342-3. > > >> * Christy, J.R. , 1995 Temperature above the surface layer. Climatic Change > >> , 30, 455-474. > > >> * Christy, J.R., R.W. Spencer and R.T. McNider, 1995 Reducing noise in the > >> MSU daily lower tropospheric global temperature data set. J Climate , 8, > >> 888-896. > > >> * Christy, J.R. and J. Goodridge, 1995 Precision global temperatures from > >> satellites and urban warming effects of non-satellite data. Atmos. Env. 29, > >> 1957-1961. > > >> * Christy, J.R. and R. T. McNider, 1994 Satellite greenhouse signal. > >> Nature, > >> 367, 325. > > >> * Christy, J.R. and S.J. Drouilhet, 1994 Variability in daily, zonal mean > >> lower-stratospheric temperatures. J. Climate, 7, 106-120. > > >> On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Oliver Wingenter < > > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>> Dear David, > > >>> The prudent and conservative to do is to be cautious and try and > >>> maintain the status quo, which is our present climate or one not too > >>> long ago. It does know one in this country (well a lawyer could argue > >>> against this) any harm to conserve energy. It helps them personally, > >>> the countries trade imbalance and slows CO2 build up. > > >>> I went to the University Alabama Huntsville web site and could not > >>> find in the > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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