I would suggest that white surface would be good for permafrost and more stable on land than at sea (where these styrofoam sheets can sail allover world to the beaches and disrupt oxygen balances in the sea). They could all be piled in huge mountains like styrofoam "pack ice" rendering them as rather useless polystyene ice bergs on beaches.
The high arctic could contain lots of redundant ground that might be possible to cover by white surfacing. But wouldn't this approace work even better in deserts to reflect heat. May be just few of the table-top mountains of Tassili mountains in Algeria could be covered by white plastic and see how this could effect, I would think this would not eat anyone's purse too much. Reflective folio film could also be fine. US$ 100k - 500k at maximum ? During ice age many Saharan mountains had glaciers and snowtops anyway, so it would not be entirely new to see white surfaces re-occurring there. Rgs, Albert > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:05:16 -0700 > Subject: [geo] Re: atmospheric and oceanic warming > From: ds...@yahoo.com > To: geoengineering@googlegroups.com > > > >Consider that in the arctic, above 38 degrees north latitude, a > reduction of more than 1,134 Megawatts per square mile per day can be > achieved by replacing open seawater with a layer of snow-covered ice. > > Megawatts per day? > > On Aug 17, 9:45 pm, "Eugene I. Gordon" <euggor...@comcast.net> wrote: > > Peter: > > > > My dogs do not distinguish between spheres and circular plates; they will > > chase anything that I throw; they are all 'balls'. I characterized the idea > > as silly but perhaps not as silly as might appear. > > > > Spray foam insulation in houses typically costs 90 cents pr square meter > > including installation. I would guess the large volume cost for spraying > > bursts of foam on the ocean by a ship to make round floating plates would be > > about 10 cents per square meter or $100 K per square kilometer or $100 > > million for 1000 square kilometers on the ocean as say 1 square meter > > roughly circular pieces made by timed spray bursts. They would float freely > > and and remain on the surface and certainly reduce heat absorption even if > > they are covered by bird droppings, but in fact that might stay reasonably > > clean. They would be moved naturally out of the way of small and large boats > > and even if they break into pieces they would be effective in keeping > > sunlight from being absorbed by the water. Since they are insulating the > > effective surface reflectivity would be 100% even if they got dirty. > > Absorbed energy would be simply radiated away and not heat the water > > underneath unless it splashes over the warmed surface. > > > > If it indeed would cost no more than $100 million it would be a bargain if > > it made ice form by keeping the ocean water from heating. > > > > -gene > > > > _____ > > > > From: Peter Read [mailto:pe...@read.org.nz] On Behalf Of Peter Read > > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 6:30 PM > > To: euggor...@comcast.net; terratw...@gmail.com; > > geoengineering@googlegroups.com > > Subject: Re: [geo] Re: atmospheric and oceanic warming > > > > Why balls when flat plates would do better? e.g. all the polystyrene packing > > material that gets junked, if it could be persuaded to stay white and if > > seals and polar bears could be persuaded not to eat it. Or, if you get > > serious, what cost for 1000 sq Km of 2 cm thick polystyrene boards that > > would get embedded in the winter ice and maybe stop it melting through in > > the summer? > > Peter > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Eugene I. <mailto:euggor...@comcast.net> Gordon > > To: terratw...@gmail.com ; geoengineering@googlegroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:21 AM > > Subject: [geo] Re: atmospheric and oceanic warming > > > > Thanks for your e-mail. There is a trivial typo; 97% should be 93%. If we > > could reverse the arctic ice melt it would go a long way toward reducing the > > rate of warming or even might achieve some cooling. > > > > In any case the earth is warming independent of manmade greenhouse gas and > > will continue to warm until the temperature reaches 25 C as it has done many > > times during the past 450 million years. That is an offline discussion thta > > we can have but the bottom line is that geoengineering is needed in any case > > with or without CO2 emissions and long term; reversing the artic ice melt > > may not be enough. > > > > My choice for reversing the ice melt would be to distribute SO2 over the > > Arctic only. It will slowly spread southward but the main cooling would be > > over the Arctic and that should allow more ice to form. > > > > Here is a silly idea. Form lightweight sunlight reflecting balls that can > > last for a few years and distribute them to float on the arctic ocean > > waters. That would certainly increase the solar reflectance and possibly > > allow ice to form trapping the balls in the ice. On open ocean they would > > not interfere with shipping, polar bears, etc. > > > > -gene > > > > _____ > > > > From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com > > [mailto:geoengineer...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Abel > > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 12:50 AM > > To: geoengineering@googlegroups.com > > Subject: [geo] atmospheric and oceanic warming > > > > All, > > > > I would very much be interested in your opinion of a concept I have been > > exploring, but as to date I have yet to find similar proposals. I would > > like to submit for your consideration a potentially effective approach to > > help globally manage some of the more concerning elements of atmospheric and > > oceanic warming. Please feel free to respond with your harshest criticisms, > > any questions, and whatever supporting information you might have. The idea > > is presented partially below, followed by a copy of some dialogue which will > > hopefully answer and help you ask the types of questions that a concept such > > as this might require. Any modeling studies which you might be aware of > > evaluating oceanic heat rejection to arctic atmosphere, and/or arctic > > surface albedo adjustment would also be of tremendous interest to me. > > > > Thank you. > > -Brian M. Abel > > <terratw...@gmail.com> > > > > Global Warming Initiative > > > > A conceptual approach to the problem of global warming > > > > As concern continues to mount over global warming and controversy rages over > > the role the "greenhouse" gases play in climate change, one thing is > > certain; the planet appears to be warming up at an alarming rate. > > > > A great deal of consideration has been given to reducing greenhouse gas > > emissions as a means of slowing or reversing global warming. However, until > > an alternative to carbon-based energy sources is found, reducing man-made > > CO2 emissions is little more than a pipe dream. And even the most > > optimistic of proponents for greenhouse gas reductions acknowledge that it > > may take decades to reverse the global trend - if it is possible at all. > > > > We are now prepared to propose a conceptual alternative to the issue of > > global warming. > > > > Background: > > > > The Earth receives an enormous amount of solar radiation. Just above the > > atmosphere, the solar power flux density averages about 1367 watts/m2, or > > 1.28 * 1014 watts over the entire earth. This power is balanced over time by > > a roughly equal amount of power radiating from the earth. Ideally Energy In > > should equal Energy Out. Various factors can influence this balance in one > > or the other direction, resulting in an atmospheric and/or planetary > > temperature change. > > > > We are convinced that an immediate and workable alternative to reducing > > greenhouse gases to reduce global warming lies in reducing the amount of > > heat captured and retained by the planet from solar energy. This can be > > accomplished by changing the albedo (simply stated, reflectivity) of a > > portion of the planet's surface. By reflecting more solar energy away from > > the planet, less heat is absorbed. > > > > Albedo is defined in terms of a 0 - 1 scale with 0 representing total > > absorption of all of the incoming solar energy and 1 representing total > > reflection of all incoming solar energy. Figure 1 shows the relative > > reflectivity of various planetary components as a percentage of the energy > > they reflect. For example, fresh snow at roughly 84% reflects 84% of the > > incoming energy and would have an albedo of .84 > > > > We propose a method of assisting a natural positive feedback cycle involving > > the polar ice caps. Snow-covered arctic ice has an albedo of 0.8, meaning > > 80 percent of the received sunlight is reflected back to space. By > > contrast, the albedo for sea water is around 0.07, meaning that only 7 > > percent of the received sunlight is reflected. Or, in other words, 97% of > > the solar energy goes into the seawater. > > > > A Growing Crisis: > > > > According to Worldwatch Institute; "the Earth's ice cover is melting in more > > places and at higher rates than at any time since record keeping began." > > > > As our planet's best reflector melts, more and more solar energy is being > > absorbed by the ocean, causing it to heat up even more -- which, of course, > > will trigger even further losses of ice. This in turn causes sea levels to > > rise, dilutes ocean water, disturbs normal currents, and impacts various > > marine and terrestrial life cycles. > > > > The Concept: "TerraTweaking" > > > > We approach the problem by asking the question "What would happen if a > > portion of the lost ice and snow cover could be restored?" Suppose, by > > applying technologies well within mankind's grasp, significant areas could > > be given new ice and snow cover. Would it be possible to locally raise the > > albedo of an area sufficiently to offset a portion of the temperature rise. > > Early indications suggest that the answer may be "yes". > > > > The concept of terraforming, the transformation of the atmosphere (or > > biosphere) of another planet into one having the characteristics of Earth, > > originated in science fiction but has, in recent years, found serious > > proponents within the technical community. Although terraforming of another > > planet is currently well beyond the technical abilities of mankind, if for > > no other reason than the simple logistics of transporting supplies, > > equipment, personnel, etc. to an other planet, "terratweaking" of our own > > planet may well be within our grasp. > > > > Imagine a fleet of ships equipped with snow-making equipment capable of > > covering large areas of low-albedo ocean or bare land with a blanket of > > snow. Consider that in the arctic, above 38 degrees north latitude, a > > reduction of more than 1,134 Megawatts per square mile per day can be > > achieved by replacing open seawater with a layer of snow-covered ice. As > > more solar heat is reflected away from the area, less heat is absorbed by > > the seawater, allowing ice and snow cover to remain longer. As more ice and > > snow is formed, salt is pushed into the ocean water below the ice where it > > sinks and thereby contributes to thermohaline circulation, natures global > > heat "conveyer belt". This process is a positive feedback system which > > naturally seeks to be self perpetuating. In the same manner, as snow and > > ice cover diminishes, the process can function as a negative feedback > > system. By providing a small push ("tweak") in the right direction, we > > believe that it may be possible to retard or even reverse the current > > warming trend. > > > > Detailed Description: > > > > As seasonal new sea ice begins forming in polar regions, saltwater is > > distilled aboard an ocean-worthy vessel. Brine, a by-product of the > > distillation process, is discharged back > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป > > _________________________________________________________________ Upgrade to Internet Explorer 8 Optimised for MSN. http://extras.uk.msn.com/internet-explorer-8/?ocid=T010MSN07A0716U --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
