If you're going to throw stuff into the sea, why not use sawdust or some other biowaste? It floats, it's white, it biodegrades, it's sustainable. Straw would also be a help. This might not only kick-start icing by albedo and possibly snow-raft effects, it could also sustain it by fibrous reinforcement of the ice (were a suitable material to be used). As to the snow-machine idea, any process involving heat transfer or osmosis for desalination will be energy intensive. Far better to spray freshwater from lakes, etc. to make artificial snow.
A 2009/8/18 Veli Albert Kallio <[email protected]> > I would suggest that white surface would be good for permafrost and more > stable on land than at sea (where these styrofoam sheets can sail allover > world to the beaches and disrupt oxygen balances in the sea). They could all > be piled in huge mountains like styrofoam "pack ice" rendering them as > rather useless polystyene ice bergs on beaches. > > The high arctic could contain lots of redundant ground that might be > possible to cover by white surfacing. But wouldn't this approace work even > better in deserts to reflect heat. > > May be just few of the table-top mountains of Tassili mountains in Algeria > could be covered by white plastic and see how this could effect, I would > think this would not eat anyone's purse too much. Reflective folio film > could also be fine. US$ 100k - 500k at maximum ? > > During ice age many Saharan mountains had glaciers and snowtops anyway, so > it would not be entirely new to see white surfaces re-occurring there. > > Rgs, Albert > > > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:05:16 -0700 > > Subject: [geo] Re: atmospheric and oceanic warming > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > >Consider that in the arctic, above 38 degrees north latitude, a > > reduction of more than 1,134 Megawatts per square mile per day can be > > achieved by replacing open seawater with a layer of snow-covered ice. > > > > Megawatts per day? > > > > On Aug 17, 9:45 pm, "Eugene I. Gordon" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Peter: > > > > > > My dogs do not distinguish between spheres and circular plates; they > will > > > chase anything that I throw; they are all 'balls'. I characterized the > idea > > > as silly but perhaps not as silly as might appear. > > > > > > Spray foam insulation in houses typically costs 90 cents pr square > meter > > > including installation. I would guess the large volume cost for > spraying > > > bursts of foam on the ocean by a ship to make round floating plates > would be > > > about 10 cents per square meter or $100 K per square kilometer or $100 > > > million for 1000 square kilometers on the ocean as say 1 square meter > > > roughly circular pieces made by timed spray bursts. They would float > freely > > > and and remain on the surface and certainly reduce heat absorption even > if > > > they are covered by bird droppings, but in fact that might stay > reasonably > > > clean. They would be moved naturally out of the way of small and large > boats > > > and even if they break into pieces they would be effective in keeping > > > sunlight from being absorbed by the water. Since they are insulating > the > > > effective surface reflectivity would be 100% even if they got dirty. > > > Absorbed energy would be simply radiated away and not heat the water > > > underneath unless it splashes over the warmed surface. > > > > > > If it indeed would cost no more than $100 million it would be a bargain > if > > > it made ice form by keeping the ocean water from heating. > > > > > > -gene > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: Peter Read [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Peter Read > > > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 6:30 PM > > > To: [email protected]; [email protected]; > > > [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [geo] Re: atmospheric and oceanic warming > > > > > > Why balls when flat plates would do better? e.g. all the polystyrene > packing > > > material that gets junked, if it could be persuaded to stay white and > if > > > seals and polar bears could be persuaded not to eat it. Or, if you get > > > serious, what cost for 1000 sq Km of 2 cm thick polystyrene boards that > > > would get embedded in the winter ice and maybe stop it melting through > in > > > the summer? > > > Peter > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Eugene I. <mailto:[email protected]> Gordon > > > To: [email protected] ; [email protected] > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:21 AM > > > Subject: [geo] Re: atmospheric and oceanic warming > > > > > > Thanks for your e-mail. There is a trivial typo; 97% should be 93%. If > we > > > could reverse the arctic ice melt it would go a long way toward > reducing the > > > rate of warming or even might achieve some cooling. > > > > > > In any case the earth is warming independent of manmade greenhouse gas > and > > > will continue to warm until the temperature reaches 25 C as it has done > many > > > times during the past 450 million years. That is an offline discussion > thta > > > we can have but the bottom line is that geoengineering is needed in any > case > > > with or without CO2 emissions and long term; reversing the artic ice > melt > > > may not be enough. > > > > > > My choice for reversing the ice melt would be to distribute SO2 over > the > > > Arctic only. It will slowly spread southward but the main cooling would > be > > > over the Arctic and that should allow more ice to form. > > > > > > Here is a silly idea. Form lightweight sunlight reflecting balls that > can > > > last for a few years and distribute them to float on the arctic ocean > > > waters. That would certainly increase the solar reflectance and > possibly > > > allow ice to form trapping the balls in the ice. On open ocean they > would > > > not interfere with shipping, polar bears, etc. > > > > > > -gene > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brian Abel > > > Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 12:50 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [geo] atmospheric and oceanic warming > > > > > > All, > > > > > > I would very much be interested in your opinion of a concept I have > been > > > exploring, but as to date I have yet to find similar proposals. I > would > > > like to submit for your consideration a potentially effective approach > to > > > help globally manage some of the more concerning elements of > atmospheric and > > > oceanic warming. Please feel free to respond with your harshest > criticisms, > > > any questions, and whatever supporting information you might have. The > idea > > > is presented partially below, followed by a copy of some dialogue which > will > > > hopefully answer and help you ask the types of questions that a concept > such > > > as this might require. Any modeling studies which you might be aware > of > > > evaluating oceanic heat rejection to arctic atmosphere, and/or arctic > > > surface albedo adjustment would also be of tremendous interest to me. > > > > > > Thank you. > > > -Brian M. Abel > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > Global Warming Initiative > > > > > > A conceptual approach to the problem of global warming > > > > > > As concern continues to mount over global warming and controversy rages > over > > > the role the "greenhouse" gases play in climate change, one thing is > > > certain; the planet appears to be warming up at an alarming rate. > > > > > > A great deal of consideration has been given to reducing greenhouse gas > > > emissions as a means of slowing or reversing global warming. However, > until > > > an alternative to carbon-based energy sources is found, reducing > man-made > > > CO2 emissions is little more than a pipe dream. And even the most > > > optimistic of proponents for greenhouse gas reductions acknowledge that > it > > > may take decades to reverse the global trend - if it is possible at > all. > > > > > > We are now prepared to propose a conceptual alternative to the issue of > > > global warming. > > > > > > Background: > > > > > > The Earth receives an enormous amount of solar radiation. Just above > the > > > atmosphere, the solar power flux density averages about 1367 watts/m2, > or > > > 1.28 * 1014 watts over the entire earth. This power is balanced over > time by > > > a roughly equal amount of power radiating from the earth. Ideally > Energy In > > > should equal Energy Out. Various factors can influence this balance in > one > > > or the other direction, resulting in an atmospheric and/or planetary > > > temperature change. > > > > > > We are convinced that an immediate and workable alternative to reducing > > > greenhouse gases to reduce global warming lies in reducing the amount > of > > > heat captured and retained by the planet from solar energy. This can > be > > > accomplished by changing the albedo (simply stated, reflectivity) of a > > > portion of the planet's surface. By reflecting more solar energy away > from > > > the planet, less heat is absorbed. > > > > > > Albedo is defined in terms of a 0 - 1 scale with 0 representing total > > > absorption of all of the incoming solar energy and 1 representing total > > > reflection of all incoming solar energy. Figure 1 shows the relative > > > reflectivity of various planetary components as a percentage of the > energy > > > they reflect. For example, fresh snow at roughly 84% reflects 84% of > the > > > incoming energy and would have an albedo of .84 > > > > > > We propose a method of assisting a natural positive feedback cycle > involving > > > the polar ice caps. Snow-covered arctic ice has an albedo of 0.8, > meaning > > > 80 percent of the received sunlight is reflected back to space. By > > > contrast, the albedo for sea water is around 0.07, meaning that only 7 > > > percent of the received sunlight is reflected. Or, in other words, 97% > of > > > the solar energy goes into the seawater. > > > > > > A Growing Crisis: > > > > > > According to Worldwatch Institute; "the Earth's ice cover is melting in > more > > > places and at higher rates than at any time since record keeping > began." > > > > > > As our planet's best reflector melts, more and more solar energy is > being > > > absorbed by the ocean, causing it to heat up even more -- which, of > course, > > > will trigger even further losses of ice. This in turn causes sea levels > to > > > rise, dilutes ocean water, disturbs normal currents, and impacts > various > > > marine and terrestrial life cycles. > > > > > > The Concept: "TerraTweaking" > > > > > > We approach the problem by asking the question "What would happen if a > > > portion of the lost ice and snow cover could be restored?" Suppose, by > > > applying technologies well within mankind's grasp, significant areas > could > > > be given new ice and snow cover. Would it be possible to locally raise > the > > > albedo of an area sufficiently to offset a portion of the temperature > rise. > > > Early indications suggest that the answer may be "yes". > > > > > > The concept of terraforming, the transformation of the atmosphere (or > > > biosphere) of another planet into one having the characteristics of > Earth, > > > originated in science fiction but has, in recent years, found serious > > > proponents within the technical community. Although terraforming of > another > > > planet is currently well beyond the technical abilities of mankind, if > for > > > no other reason than the simple logistics of transporting supplies, > > > equipment, personnel, etc. to an other planet, "terratweaking" of our > own > > > planet may well be within our grasp. > > > > > > Imagine a fleet of ships equipped with snow-making equipment capable of > > > covering large areas of low-albedo ocean or bare land with a blanket of > > > snow. Consider that in the arctic, above 38 degrees north latitude, a > > > reduction of more than 1,134 Megawatts per square mile per day can be > > > achieved by replacing open seawater with a layer of snow-covered ice. > As > > > more solar heat is reflected away from the area, less heat is absorbed > by > > > the seawater, allowing ice and snow cover to remain longer. As more > ice and > > > snow is formed, salt is pushed into the ocean water below the ice where > it > > > sinks and thereby contributes to thermohaline circulation, natures > global > > > heat "conveyer belt". This process is a positive feedback system which > > > naturally seeks to be self perpetuating. In the same manner, as snow > and > > > ice cover diminishes, the process can function as a negative feedback > > > system. By providing a small push ("tweak") in the right direction, we > > > believe that it may be possible to retard or even reverse the current > > > warming trend. > > > > > > Detailed Description: > > > > > > As seasonal new sea ice begins forming in polar regions, saltwater is > > > distilled aboard an ocean-worthy vessel. Brine, a by-product of the > > > distillation process, is discharged back > > > > > > ... > > > > > > read more ยป > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
