Ken has got a point: ETC have simply waded in and called people 'tricksters', making an imputation of bad faith without even waiting to read what they have to say. This is not a serious approach and makes genuine dialogue difficult if not impossible. Stephen Salter, judging by his mild reply to Diana, must have the hide of a rhinoceros and/or the patience of a saint!
On Aug 30, 2:06 pm, "Eugene I. Gordon" <[email protected]> wrote: > I disagree. My experience is that anyone who doesn’t swallow the whole > potion is a denier. So I do not attack the behavior of the advocates (hyper > greens you call them). I simply point out what is lacking from their > argument(s) and assert over and over and over again how science works to > reach the stage called theory and why anthropogenic CO2 caused warming is > only a part of the total global warming story and stands only as an > incomplete hypothesis; hardly even approaching the stage of theory despite > the massive research because of the components of global warming are > unpredictable (e.g. sunspots). > > Sometimes I point to the 540 million year history of the Earth’s climate and > show how the current warming is part of a long term upward trend that is > being exacerbated by but not caused by anthropogenic CO2 emissions and why > Geoengineering will be needed in any case. > > We should stand our ground and be firm but not insulting or demeaning. It > only diminishes us. History will record that it is the hyper greens that are > the assholes. > > -gene > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lane, Lee O. > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 8:10 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Cc: geoengineering; [email protected] > Subject: [geo] Re: ETC Group on Royal Society Report: The Emperor's New > Climate: Geoengineering as 21st century fairytale > > Dear David, > > In one sense, I agree with you. It can seem futile to engage in any kind of > debate with hyper-greens. In another sense, though, there is a problem with > allowing their claims and charges to go unanswered. > > People who pride themselves on their environmental "ethics" often attack the > motives and integrity of those with whom they disagree. The ETC group seems > clearly to fall into this category, but they are far from being alone. In > fact, such attacks are standard operating procedure for much of organized > environmentalism and for its academic fellow travelers. > > It is difficult to know how to respond, but I think that Ken is right to > point out the inappropriate nature of this behavior. Maybe the ETC group is > too marginal even within the green movement to warrant much attention. The > tactic, though, is not at all marginal. To the contrary, it plays a large > and corrosive role in public discourse. Those of us who would like to see a > more dispassionate discussion of the issues should, I think, join in > condemning such behavior - even if we do so without great hopes of effecting > change. > > Lee Lane > > _____ > > From: [email protected] on behalf of David Schnare > Sent: Sat 8/29/2009 12:39 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: geoengineering; [email protected] > Subject: [geo] Re: ETC Group on Royal Society Report: The Emperor’s New > Climate: Geoengineering as 21st century fairytale > > The more you complain about ETC, the more credibility they get. Just speak > to their errors and to the need for the research. If asked specifically > about the ETC, simply explain that they are a politically enabled group that > has not done their homework. > > You need thick (thicker) skin. > > d > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Ken Caldeira <[email protected]> wrote: > > I find it offensive that the ETC group has resorted to calling the > authors of the Royal Society report "tricksters". > > "The Royal Society will play an important role in this performance by > offering a prestigious platform and global microphone to some modern- > day tricksters." > > http://www.etcgroup.org/en/materials/publications.html?pub_id=762 > > It is one thing to suggest that we are uninformed, misinformed, or > even deluded, but another thing entirely to suggest that we are acting > with the intent to "trick" people into doing things that might harm > the environment. Charges that we are acting in bad faith are > unfounded, reckless, repugnant, and malicious. > > ETC owes an apology to me and the other authors of the Royal Society > report. > > Furthermore: > > ETC says the emperor has no clothes. We are calling for an examination > of the emperor's garments. ETC asks us instead to close our eyes and > trust them blindly. > > If ETC really believes the emperor really has no clothes, they should > be happy to join us in calls for an investigation into the emperor's > clothing. > > Best, > > Ken > > On Aug 29, 4:31 am, Stephen Salter <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Dear Diana > > > Thank you for the copy of your report about the Royal Society. > > > I am attaching a paper which tries to show the effects of an experiment > > on cloud albedo control and how difficult it will be to detect a change > > big enough to offset the thermal effects of double CO2 or the greenhouse > > equivalent amount of methane which is coming off at an accelerating rate > > from the Arctic and Siberia. > > > Your paper mentioned costs. My estimate for the total cost of a cloud > > albedo research project will less than 0.38 on the Ronaldo scale with > > annual running costs of a system to 'hold the fort' of about 1.5. One > > Ronaldo is £80 million and replaces the previously used G8 summit unit. > > The latter rose from £85 million at Gleneagles to £285 million at Lake > > Toya and is now regarded as being too volatile. > > > Stephen Salter > > > Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design > > School of Engineering and Electronics > > University of Edinburgh > > Mayfield Road > > Edinburgh EH9 3JL > > Scotland > > tel +44 131 650 5704 > > fax +44 131 650 5702 > > Mobile 07795 203 195 > > [email protected]http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs > > > Diana Bronson wrote: > > > ETC Group > > > News Release > > > 28 August 2009 > > >www.etcgroup.org<http://www.etcgroup.org/> > > > > SCIENCE FICTIONS: UK’S ROYAL SOCIETY TO ISSUE MAJOR REPORT > > > ON GEOENGINEERING SEPTEMBER 1; > > > BAN REAL-WORLD EXPERIMENTS, SAYS ETC GROUP > > > > The oldest scientific academy in the world, the UK’s Royal Society, > > > will release its long-awaited report on geoengineering September 1st > > > 2009 in London. The report, drafted by a panel dominated by > > > geoengineering enthusiasts, is widely expected to recommend that the > > > government support more research and perhaps even real-world > > > experimentation of these controversial new technologies that > > > intentionally manipulate the earth’s climate on a large scale with the > > > aim of lessening the effects of climate change. > > > > “Geoengineering is a bad idea, and, unfortunately, it may transform > > > Lord Rees’s book from musings to memoir,” says Diana Bronson, > > > researcher for the international technology watchdog ETC Group, > > > referring to the Royal Society President’s 2004 book, Our Final > > > Century, which suggested that humans may not live to see the end of > > > the 21st century. > > > > Geoengineering can refer to sulphate-injections in the stratosphere > > > and cloud-whitening to reflect sunlight away from the earth, > > > fertilization of the oceans with iron nano-particles to try to > > > increase their carbon-carrying capacity, intentionally modifying > > > global weather patterns, among other techniques. > > > > “The Royal Society may be cautious in their report but, in fact, when > > > it comes to geoengineering, a yellow light can quickly turn green. For > > > the climate to take notice, any geoengineering scheme would have to be > > > massive – sulphate particles or whitened clouds would have to deflect > > > a lot of sunlight and ocean fertilization would have to cover great > > > swathes of sea. Even the most careful computer models won’t be able to > > > predict what will happen if an experiment is scaled-up and moved out > > > of doors,” argues Bronson. “If governments believe there is a techno- > > > fix to the climate change conundrum that will let them off the hook at > > > the climate change treaty negotiations in Copenhagen, they will throw > > > precious time and dollars at sci-fi fantasies, overlook potentially > > > devastating side effects and divert their attention from the urgent > > > need to reduce carbon emissions at source.” > > > > ETC Group’s new special report, “The Emperor’s New Climate: > > > Geoengineering as 21st century fairytale,” questions the narratives > > > commonly used by the geoengineering lobby to advance their agenda. > > > “Contrary to what geoengineers are saying, this is a costly time- > > > waster,” says Bronson. The report calls for a broader international > > > discussion and concludes that “any effort to experiment these > > > technologies in the real world is nothing short of geopiracy and > > > should be banned.” > > > > ETC Group’s special report, “The Emperor’s New Climate: Geoengineering > > > as 21st century fairytale,” is available on the Internet > > athttp://www.etcgroup.org/en/materials/publications.html?pub_id=762 > > > > > > > > -30- > > > > For more information: > > > > Diana Bronson (Montreal, Canada) [email protected] > > > Phone: +1 514 273 6661; cell +1 514 629 9236 > > > > Kathy Jo Wetter (Durham, NC, USA) [email protected] > > > Phone: +1 919 688 7302 > > > > Silvia Ribeiro (Mexico City) [email protected] > > > Phone: 011 52 5555 6326 64 > > > > Molly Kane (Ottawa, Canada) [email protected] > > > Phone: +1 613 241 2267, ext 26; cell +1 613 797-6421 > > > -- > > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > > > Salter Satellite albedo demo preprint.doc > > 3089KViewDownload > > -- > David W. 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