Jeff's post about clouds over the arctic is interesting. If low altitude clouds are beneficial in the summer and detrimental in the other seasons, they can be seeded during the non-summer months to prevent them from heating the land. They can be seeded in strategic places also. Over the ocean to prevent rainfall over the land that will melt ice and snow until winter when snow will fall, which will increase ice formation. The main idea is to reinforce the effects we want by timing them and placing them strategically.
On Dec 16, 12:33 pm, Neil Farbstein <[email protected]> wrote: > What is electrostatic drop seeding. Can it be scaled up? > > On Dec 16, 12:02 pm, John Latham <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > Hello Mike et al, > > > I agree entirely with you Mike that seeding can cause ice fogs to disperse. > > Also electrostatic droplet seeding could help dissipate warm fogs. I should > > have more carefully indicated that I was focusing on seeding of clouds > > containing ice, and particularly mixed-phase clouds. > > > Cheers, John. > > > Quoting Mike MacCracken <[email protected]>: > > > > With one exception, I agree with John. The exception is that I think it > > > has > > > been demonstrated that one can clear an ice fog with seeding, and this has > > > been done to open airports, etc.--not to generate precipitation (in any > > > form). > > > > I would add that the water vapor content of air and clouds above Greenland > > > is likely so low that one could not be likely to get a significant buildup > > > of snow. Whether one could seed storms or change sea surface temperatures > > > in > > > surrounding areas in a way that would lead to greater likelihood of storms > > > depositing snow on Greenland (or Antarctica, etc.) has not, to my > > > knowledge, > > > been looked at at all. > > > > Mike > > > > On 12/16/09 4:00 AM, "John Latham" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Hello Neil, Andrew et al. > > > >> Cloud seeding (principally to make rain) has had a long and highly > > >> chequered > > >> history in the 60 years since Vonnegut, Schaefer & Langmuir did their > > >> pioneering work. Many studies since then were contaminated by commercial > > >> interests. There is no essentially no consensus as to whether and under > > >> what > > >> circumstances it will work. This is especially true for clouds that > > >> contain > > >> ice. Whether seeding will enhance, reduce or have negligible effect on > > >> such > > >> clouds depends on: atmospheric stability, cloud-base temperature, > > >> updraught > > >> speed, presence or absence of conditions in which natural secondary can > > >> function, level and location etc etc. I think there is good reason to > > >> feel > > >> sceptical of studies reporting quantitative estimates of changes induced > > >> by > > >> seeding. My view is that - as with several geoengineering schemes - what > > >> is > > >> urgently required is well-controlled , comprehensive field experiments. > > >> Only > > >> then will it be possible to establish whether cloud seeding might, on a > > >> regional scale, be important vis-a-vis climate change. > > > >> Cheers, John. > > > >> ******************************** > > > >> Quoting Neil Farbstein <[email protected]>: > > > >>> > I'm glad we agree. Small cloud seeding experiments over Greenland > > >>> > should be practical. We should give this some thought and modeling. > > >>> > Can you do that at your lab? Google satellite pictures and weather > > >>> > satellites can locate clouds that are likely targets to seed; The > > >>> > bigger clouds in the places that are most strategic. > > >>> > An international organization or groups of industrialized nations can > > >>> > pay the local residents or the greenland government subsidies for > > >>> > participating in the cloud seeding program. > > > >>> > On Dec 15, 8:27 pm, Andrew Lockley <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>> >> For clarity, the main reason my for suggesting cloud seeding is > > >>>> >> that it > > >>>> can > > >>>> >> be used to build up greenland to a height where the air temperature > > >>>> >> is > > >>>> low > > >>>> >> enough to sustain the ice sheet. The could potentially reverse the > > >>>> >> catastrophic Greenland tipping point - which will unleash > > >>>> several metres > > > of > > >>>> >> sea level rise over a few hundred years. Game over for London, > > >>>> >> Venice, > > >>>> >> Florida, New York, etc. if that happens. Worth a bit of jet fuel > > >>>> >> or a > > >>>> few > > >>>> >> rockets to prevent that, I'd argue. > > > >>>> >> A > > > >>>> >> 2009/12/15 Neil Farbstein <[email protected]> > > > >>>>> >> > I suggested the same cloud seeding strategy a month ago. Somebody > > >>>>> >> > authoritative said that the biggest snowfall recorded over the > > >>>>> >> > alaskan arctic caused the biggest melt water recorded during the > > >>>>> >> > spring. That's anecdotal evidence but I dropped the idea of > > >>>>> working on > > >>>>> >> > that anyway. > > > >>>>> >> > There wont be a melt water problem if clouds are seeded over > > >>>>> >> > large > > >>>>> >> > parts of the gulfstream to cool it and the winds that blow off > > >>>>> >> > it. > > > >>>>> >> > On Dec 15, 5:47 am, Andrew Lockley <[email protected]> > > >>>>> >> > wrote: > > >>>>>> >> > > I note the use of cloud seeding by the Chinese, and its > > >>>> >> unexpected effect > > >>>>> >> > in > > >>>>>> >> > > causing huge snowfalls in Beijing. It seems that there may be > > >>>> >> two useful > > >>>>>> >> > > geoengineering approaches with this technique, and I'd be > > >>>>>> interested in > > >>>>>> >> > > hearing comments. > > > >>>>>> >> > > 1) Rebuild ice - by inducing snowfalls over Greenland, > > >>>> >> Antarctica and the > > >>>>>> >> > > Arctic, it would perhaps be possible to maintain ice. In > > >>>>>> Greenland, > > >>>>> >> > where > > >>>>>> >> > > the height of the ice cap is critical, this would seem a > > >>>>>> particularly > > >>>>>> >> > > appealing prospect. > > >>>>>> >> > > 2) Albedo modification - Fresh snow is whiter than old snow, > > >>>>>> especially > > >>>>> >> > in > > >>>>>> >> > > polluted areas. Is the albedo change worth pursuing? My > > >>>>>> guess is > > > not. > > >>>>>> >> > > HOWEVER, I suspect that triggering significant autumn and > > >>>>>> >> > > spring > > >>>>> >> > snowfalls > > >>>>>> >> > > in permafrost regions, we could potentially significantly > > >>>>>> >> > > modify > > >>>>>> albedo. > > > >>>>>> >> > > I invite comments. > > > >>>>>> >> > > A > > > >>>>> >> > -- > > > >>>>> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > >>>>> >> > Google > > >>>>> Groups > > >>>>> >> > "geoengineering" group. > > >>>>> >> > To post to this group, send email to > > >>>>> [email protected]. > > >>>>> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > >>>> [email protected]<geoengineering%2bunsubscr...@go > > >>>> oglegroups.com> > > >>>>> >> > . > > >>>>> >> > For more options, visit this group at > > >>>>> >> >http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en.-Hide > > >>>>> quoted text > > > - > > > >>>> >> - Show quoted text - > > > >>> > -- > > > >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > >>> > Groups "geoengineering" group. > > >>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > >>> > [email protected]. > > >>> > For more options, visit this group at > > >>> >http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > -- > > John Latham > > > [email protected] & [email protected] > > > Tel. 303-444-2429 (H) & 303-497-8182 (W)- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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