If you scale this to have any impact on the climate, you'll run out of markets for by products.
This hydrogen biological process doesn't scale to climatically significant levels with anything like present day technology. We'd need to be living in a world with essentially free energy to make it viable. It would be energetically the equivalent of chemically turning all our emissions back into coal and burying it. Absolutely unfeasible. A On 19 Sep 2014 21:00, "Michael Hayes" <[email protected]> wrote: > Greg et al, > > *[GR] "How about just using the H2 as fuel and sequestering the CO2?"* > > [MH] Yes, that method would be used to supply H2 to as many customers as > possible. Yet, the needed H2 distribution and storage infrastructure for a > global scale use of H2 is still sometime off. The large potential of CO2 > removal by marine biomass cultivation is so large that we may not be able > to use it all within the cultivation process and thus sequestering CO2, > through multiple paths, does need to be incorporated into the overall > industrial process. > > However, the benefits of using the CO2, to the fullest extent possible, to > produce food, feed, fertilizer, polymers etc. are significant. *The > combined market value of the non-fuel commodities eclipses the market value > of the fuel commodities. Thus, at the financial level, not exploiting the > non-fuel downstream value would be of questionable logic*. > > *[GR] "You'd lose energy by making hydrocarbon fuel from the H2.".* > > [MH] Yes, all energy conversions exact an energy price and efficiency,* > in the overall process*, needs to be on the extreme side and marine algae > based energy can reach a higher degree of efficiency than terrestrial bio > based methods due to multiple synergistic factors. One of the most > prominent efficiency factors being the reduction/virtual elimination of > inter-process transport and handling of bulk material (including the raw > nutrient input). Even beyond the energy issue, if we could snap our > collective fingers and create a H2/PV/wind/wave based global energy > paradigm, we would still need the food, feed, fertilizer, polymers, > freshwater etc. if we are to avoid population collapse/resource conflicts > within a 7-10B+ global population. > > *[GR] "Or if you insist on hydrocarbons, why not just ferment the biomass > and make methane/methanol + conc CO2.".* > > [MH] Fermentation based cultivation of a wide spectrum of species is > within the capacity of floating tank farms. There are some bacterial > species, which require fermentation, that can provide us with fabrics which > are stronger than silk and require no dyeing as the fabric 'grows' already > colored. Further, many anaerobic methanotrophs are very efficient at > converting methane into biomass and the ability of anaerobic methanotrophs > to produce biomass, on an industrial level, may actually be more efficient > than cultivating algae. > > In brief, fermentation will be a large factor within the tank farm > operations and the production of methane/methanol would be a valuable > *by-product*. > > *[GR] "If you are going to fertilize the ocean to make biomass where is > the fertilizer (N,P, Si, Fe, etc.) coming from...".* > > [MH] First, the use of tanks (bio-reactors) maximizes the efficiencies of > the use of all nutrient/mineral inputs. Further, the Haber–Bosch process > can be used on-board the platforms to provide the N and olivine can supply > the bulk of the needed Si and Fe. Interestingly, there are some forms of > micro algae which have developed tolerances to low Fe input. Here is an > example of that evolution: > > Genome and low-iron response of an oceanic diatom adapted to chronic iron > limitation <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/r66> > > Markus Lommer1 <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins1>, Michael > Specht2 <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins2>, Alexandra-Sophie > Roy1 <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins1>, Lars Kraemer3 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins3>, Reidar Andreson4 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins4>5 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins5>, Magdalena A Gutowska6 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins6>, Juliane Wolf2 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins2>, Sonja V Bergner2 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins2>, Markus B Schilhabel3 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins3>, Ulrich C Klostermeier3 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins3>, Robert G Beiko7 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins7>, Philip Rosenstiel3 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins3>, Michael Hippler2 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins2> and Julie LaRoche1 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins1>8 > <http://genomebiology.com/2012/13/7/R66/#ins8>* > Abstract > Background > > Biogeochemical elemental cycling is driven by primary production of > biomass via phototrophic phytoplankton growth, with 40% of marine > productivity being assigned to diatoms. Phytoplankton growth is widely > limited by the availability of iron, an essential component of the > photosynthetic apparatus. The oceanic diatom *Thalassiosira oceanica *shows > a remarkable tolerance to low-iron conditions and was chosen as a model for > deciphering the cellular response upon shortage of this essential > micronutrient. > Results > > The combined efforts in genomics, transcriptomics and proteomics reveal an > unexpected metabolic flexibility in response to iron availability for *T. > oceanica *CCMP1005. The complex response comprises cellular retrenchment > as well as remodeling of bioenergetic pathways, where the abundance of > iron-rich photosynthetic proteins is lowered, whereas iron-rich > mitochondrial proteins are preserved. As a consequence of iron deprivation, > the photosynthetic machinery undergoes a remodeling to adjust the light > energy utilization with the overall decrease in photosynthetic electron > transfer complexes. > Conclusions > > Beneficial adaptations to low-iron environments include strategies to > lower the cellular iron requirements and to enhance iron uptake. A novel > contribution enhancing iron economy of phototrophic growth is observed with > the iron-regulated substitution of three metal-containing > fructose-bisphosphate aldolases involved in metabolic conversion of > carbohydrates for enzymes that do not contain metals. Further, our data > identify candidate components of a high-affinity iron-uptake system, with > several of the involved genes and domains originating from duplication > events. A high genomic plasticity, as seen from the fraction of genes > acquired through horizontal gene transfer, provides the platform for these > complex adaptations to a low-iron world. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As we can see in the above work, the ability to conserve on the > micro-nutrient input is available through proper species selection (and > possibly breeding for extreme micro-nutrient limitation). It is > interesting to contemplate the potential elimination of the need for Fe > altogether through using the Dark Reduction method as Fe is primarily > used in photosynthesis and the Dark Reduction method eliminates the > need for photosynthesis. However, it's best that I not go too deep into > the biogenesis issue/potential. > > In brief, nature itself can assist us in reaching extreme levels of > efficiencies even at even the micro-nutrient level. Also, exploration of > the seafloor for the needed micro-nutrients will be a priority within the > IMBECS operation. > > *[GR] "...what are the impacts of making (mining?), packaging, and > transporting it?".* > > [MH] The financial cost aspects of mining of the minerals as well as the > transport factor can be significantly reduced simply through the use, > within those sectors, of the carbon negative biofuels produced on-board the > IMBECS platforms. The 'Ship-to-Shore' and 'Shore-to-Ship' leg of the > transport issue will, most likely, be radically transformed > <http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323446404579009253644782372> > (i.e. > submerged hyperloop) once production volume becomes substantial. Even if > such a transformation does not appear, marine transport, as is currently > exists, is the most cost effective means of bulk transport we have. The > profit potential of the non-fuel commodities is ample enough to cover the > mining and transport costs. > > Yet and again, exploring the sea floor for minerals would be the best > approach to these issues and the mid-oceanic ridges offer us a good deal > of promise > <http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/JB075i008p01585/abstract>. If > a method such AWL is to be put on a vast scale within the oceanic > environment, the mid-oceanic ridges will, most likely, be the best source > of the needed minerals for that method (as well as for the biomass > cultivation needs). Obviously, there is a difference between mid-oceanic > ridges and active marine volcanic vents. Yet, the vent illustration below > may help to clarify the value of these regions. > > > <https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-csvxFDh2mRU/VBoNpl6rzoI/AAAAAAAABNY/L4kfoGxf8-A/s1600/Deep_sea_vent_chemistry_diagram.jpg> > > > > Further, the large scale use of OTC, in of itself, can potentially > provide, vis-a-vis its' massive water volume flow, useful amounts of > minerals. Here is the Wiki > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_thermal_energy_conversion#Mineral_extraction> > : > Mineral extraction[edit > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ocean_thermal_energy_conversion&action=edit§ion=25> > ] > > The ocean contains 57 trace elements > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trace_element> in salts and other forms and > dissolved in solution. In the past, most economic analyses concluded that > mining the ocean for trace elements would be unprofitable, in part because > of the energy required to pump the water. Mining generally targets minerals > that occur in high concentrations, and can be extracted easily, such as > magnesium <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium>. With OTEC plants > supplying water, the only cost is for extraction.[*citation needed > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*] The Japanese > investigated the possibility of extracting uranium > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium> and found developments in other > technologies (especially materials sciences) were improving the prospects. > [*citation needed > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*]. > > The current state of the art in marine trace element extraction methods > are at the most rudimentary level. Transformative advances in that field > are plausible (with the proper funding). The marine trace element > extraction variant of this > <http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/40979/title/Next-Generation--Blood-Cleansing-Device/> > technology is > interesting to consider. > > As to issues surrounding packaging/processing of the non-fuel > commodities, it is important to keep in mind that the oceanic environment > offers us a multitude of renewable energy paths. In short, there is no > shortage of energy within the oceans. Thus, we can us energy intensive > methods typically not used on land. Vacuum freeze drying > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeze-drying> is one example of such an > energy intensive method which would be highly useful in maximizing the self > life, and thus profits, of any solid bio product. > > As an interesting side note on packaging/transport, bio-polymers > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioplastic#Bio-derived_polyethylene> offer > us a highly unique form of C sequestration. Building seafloor pipelines ( > hyperloops > <http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323446404579009253644782372>), > even thousands of kilometers long, of bio-polymers is plausible and would > obviously represent significant gigaton levels of C sequestration just > through their construction. > > *[GR] "How will nutrients be recycled? What are the environmental impacts > of all of the preceding?".* > > [MH] The nutrients will be cycled back into the environment through > multiple paths depending upon the product being produced. The food, feed > and fertilizer nutrient recycling paths will be through standard means. As > to the nutrient cycle management within the tank farms, that issue will be > tightly managed and reflect a permaculture > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture> style of conservation. > > As to the overall environmental impacts of the above; Frankly, I'm not > finding any significant negative impacts, once the full scope of operation > is taken into account, and the potential for strongly positive impacts > seem to be highly plausible. > > Greg, thanks for the well thought out questions. I hope the above is not > too topical. > > Best regards, > > Michael > > > Greg > > On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:40:31 AM UTC-7, Greg Rau wrote: >> >> How about just using the H2 as fuel and sequestering the CO2? You'd lose >> energy by making hydrocarbon fuel from the H2. Or if you insist on >> hydrocarbons, why not just ferment the biomass and make methane/methanol + >> conc CO2. If you are going to fertilize the ocean to make biomass where is >> the fertilizer (N,P, Si, Fe, etc.) coming from and what are the impacts of >> making (mining?), packaging, and transporting it? How will nutrients be >> recycled? What are the environmental impacts of all of the preceding? >> Greg >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Michael Hayes <[email protected]> >> *To:* [email protected] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 16, 2014 1:14 PM >> *Subject:* [geo] Re: Steam Co-Gasification - Brown Seaweed, Land-Based >> Biomass (+CCS/AWL?) >> >> Greg et al, >> >> Yes, the combination of marine biomass gasification with AWL does offer >> interesting synergistic potential. To extend this synergistic link even >> further, the H2 and CO2 can, in turn, be used to cultivate, without >> light/photosynthesis, even larger volumes of marine biomass through the >> process of: >> >> REDUCTION OF CARBON DIOXIDE COUPLED WITH THE OXYHYDROGEN REACTION IN ALGAE >> <http://jgp.rupress.org/content/26/2/241.full.pdf+html> >> >> BY HANS GAFFRON >> (From the Department of Chemistry, The University of Chicago, Chicago) >> (Received for publication, July 6, 1942) >> >> *"Summarizing these results one can hardly avoid the conclusion that with >> the exception of the typical light absorption by chlorophyll both >> photoreduction and dark reduction of carbon dioxide in green algae proceed >> along the same pathways.". * >> >> This serial reuse of the CO2, before sequestration through AWL/sea floor >> injection/biochar/fertilizer etc., does appear, at the ideation level, to >> offer a low cost means for both energy production and CO2 sequestration. In >> that, the '*dark reduction*' method allows for low cost '*dark reactors*' >> to be submerged and 'stacked' down to the maximum pressure depth tolerated >> by the micro algae. >> >> Corn gives us around 240 gal/yr/ac of fuel. Typical micro algal >> cultivation gives us around 5K gal/yr/ac. The use of the '*dark >> reduction*' method within '*dark reactor farms*' makes the use of the >> acre comparison moot. We can see 50K gal/yr/ac. Thus, micro algal, as >> opposed to macro algal, cultivation can have a strong advantage over all >> other forms of biomass production and thus carbon negative fuel. >> >> The above is central to the IMBECS Protocol >> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m9VXozADC0IIE6mYx5NsnJLrUvF_fWJN_GyigCzDLn0/edit> >> technology suite. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Michael >> >> P.S. From the 'ethics view', the above can not be faulted. >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 10:51:07 AM UTC-7, Greg Rau wrote: >> >> Add CCS or preferably AWL to get C negativity. Figure out a way to >> cost-effectively harvest biomass and recycle nutrients, and you might have >> something, pending rigorous analysis from our ethics experts. >> Greg >> Steam co-gasification of brown seaweed and land-based biomass [image: >> http://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/DeepDyve_SD.png] >> <http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier/steam-co-gasification-of-brown-seaweed-and-land-based-biomass-GFow9VzgNi?key=elsevier> >> [image: >> http://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/gw_rtn_ihub.gif] >> <http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0378382013003913?showall=true> >> DOI: >> 10.1016/j.fuproc.2013.12.013 Get rights and content >> <https://s100.copyright.com/AppDispatchServlet?publisherName=ELS&contentID=S0378382013003913&orderBeanReset=true> >> ------------------------------ >> Highlights • Excellent self-catalytic effect was found in steam >> gasification of seaweed. • More gas was produced from seaweed than >> land-based biomass. • Addition of brown seaweed in land-based biomass >> promoted gasification rate. >> ------------------------------ >> Abstract Alkali and alkaline earth species in biomass have >> self-catalytic activity on the steam gasification to produce hydrogen-rich >> gas. In this study, three types of biomass, i.e., brown seaweed, Japanese >> cedar, apple branch containing different concentrations of alkali and >> alkaline earth species, and the mix of both of them were gasified with >> steam in a fixed-bed reactor under atmospheric pressure. The effects of >> reaction temperature, steam amount and mixing ratio in co-gasification on >> gas production yields were investigated. The results showed that higher >> gas production yields (especially for H2 and CO2) were obtained when the >> brown seaweed was used than the other two types of biomass since the ash >> content in brown seaweed was much higher than in land-based biomass and >> contained a large amount of alkali and alkaline earth species. The yield >> of hydrogen increased with an increase in the amount of steam, but >> excessive steam use reduced the hydrogen production yield. From the >> co-gasification experiments, the gas production yields (especially for H2 >> and CO2) from the land-based biomass increased with the increase in >> brown seaweed ratio, suggesting that the alkali and alkaline earth species >> in brown seaweed acted as the catalysts to enhance the gasification of >> land-based biomass in co-gasification process. >> ------------------------------ >> Graphical abstract [image: Full-size image (32 K)] >> <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378382013003913#fx1> >> Keywords Biomass; Steam gasification; Co-gasification; Seaweed; Alkali >> metals; Alkaline earth metals >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "geoengineering" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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