For clarity, I meant that the energy losses pumping from below the thermocline are modest. Comparable to pumping water for domestic use.
A On 16 Sep 2017 01:08, "Peter Flynn" <[email protected]> wrote: > Andrew, > > > > I’m not sure I understand your comment that deep water isn’t that deep. > Typical numbers for the shallow ocean are a depth of 200 meter, with a > thermocline between 200 and 1000 meters and a very consistent temperature > and salinity below 1000 meters. See, for example: > > > > https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/thermocline.html > > > > One could bring the deep ocean from 1000 meters to surface in a sealed > tube; it would take energy. I don’t know the permanent salt fountain well > enough to comment on it. > > > > Peter > > > > Peter Flynn, P. Eng., Ph. D. > > Emeritus Professor and Poole Chair in Management for Engineers > > Department of Mechanical Engineering > > University of Alberta > > [email protected] > > cell: 928 451 4455 <(928)%20451-4455> > > > > > > > > *From:* Andrew Lockley [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Friday, September 15, 2017 11:54 AM > *To:* Peter Flynn <[email protected]> > *Cc:* Jason Zhou <[email protected]>; geoengineering < > [email protected]>; [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: [geo] SOS 2017 Session spotlight 4 - Ocean NETs - CO2 > Sequestration Via Ocean-Based Negative Emissions Technologies > > > > Thanks Peter. However, you don't address whether pumping water into sealed > tubes or greenhouses would be viable. > > > > Deep water isn't that deep - water for my toilet is pumped much further. > > > > As long as the water lifted was kept away from the atmosphere and surface > ocean, it should be effective at fertilization of algae without releasing > CO2 > > > > A > > > > On 15 Sep 2017 18:15, "Peter Flynn" <[email protected]> wrote: > > This prompts several comments, and apologies for the delay and to those > for whom this is too basic: > > > > 1. The ocean can be thought of as two relatively independent bodies of > water, the shallow and deep ocean. There is a fairly sharp boundary between > the two, called the thermocline. Transfer between the two is limited, as > discussed below. Once something in solution is in the deep ocean, on > average its residence time before getting to the shallow ocean is 600 to > 1000 years. This is an average; there are regions of the ocean where > circulation between the deep and shallow ocean is very limited, and the > site specific residence time is longer. > > > > The deep ocean is cold and dense. Mixing with the shallow ocean is > energetically difficult because of the energy required to move a dense > element up against gravity across the thermocline into a less dense zone. > > > > 2. The interaction between shallow and deep is limited to downwelling and > upwelling currents. There are two major zones of downwelling current, a > zone in the north Atlantic called the GIN (named for its proximity to > Greenland, Iceland, and Norway) and a zone in the Antarctic by the Weddell > Sea. The GIN downwelling current is called the North Atlantic Deep Water > (NADW), and is the countervailing flow to the Gulf Stream. Downwelling is > driven by a combination of temperature and high salinity (the high salinity > is in part driven by evaporation in the Mediterranean Sea, a current from > which joins the Gulf Stream). NADW and the companion Gulf Stream were > interrupted for about 1200 years when Lake Agassiz, a glacial fresh water > lake in North America, flowed into the Atlantic after an ice dam melted. > The result was a 1200 year European cold period known as the Younger Dryas. > > > > Europe has centers of high population at latitudes higher than any other > region on the globe; the Gulf Stream is credited for enabling this. One > concern cited about global warming is that melting of Greenland ice could > interrupt the NADW / Gulf Stream again: the irony is that an early product > of global warming could be a European “ice age”. > > > > 3. Songjian Zhou and I looked at whether one could move CO2 from the > atmosphere into the deep ocean by increasing the concentration of CO2 in > NADW. Our answer was no: the surface water descending into the NADW was > saturated in CO2. But the deep ocean is not saturated in CO2, because of > its higher pressure. > > > > 4. Hence discussion of moving deep ocean water into the shallow ocean > baffles me. Yes: it contains nutrients. But it also contains CO2, which > would flash as the pressure dropped and temperature increased. It strikes > me that we should think of the deep ocean as the sink for CO2, not a source > of a “fix”. Any plan to use the nutrients in the deep ocean to grow marine > biomass to be sunk into the deep ocean (or utilized as biofuel) would have > to be carefully tested against the CO2 release. > > > > 5. Glen Tichkowsky and I looked at a scheme in which ocean side pools of > sea water would be used to grow algae. Evaporation would increase the > salinity of the pond to a point where the water could be moved as a batch > into the deep ocean without pumping. The rate limiting step, by an order of > magnitude, was the rate of transfer of CO2 from atmosphere to ocean; it was > sufficiently slow to make the cost of carbon sequestration by this scheme > prohibitive. I understood after this work why commercial algae growing > operations often include agitation (to enhance mass transfer) or CO2 > injection. Transferring CO2 into solution is well served by a higher > concentration, e.g. flue gas. > > > > I hope this is helpful. > > > > Peter > > > > Peter Flynn, P. Eng., Ph. D. > > Emeritus Professor and Poole Chair in Management for Engineers > > Department of Mechanical Engineering > > University of Alberta > > [email protected] > > cell: 928 451 4455 <(928)%20451-4455> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Ken > Caldeira > *Sent:* Monday, September 11, 2017 7:03 AM > *To:* Geoengineering <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [geo] SOS 2017 Session spotlight 4 - Ocean NETs - CO2 > Sequestration Via Ocean-Based Negative Emissions Technologies > > > > fyi > > > > [image: > http://sable.madmimi.com/view?id=37127.2887543.1.7549b994549320031d05f495dbf42a2e] > > Sustainable Ocean Summit 2017 SESSION SPOTLIGHT Ocean NETs: CO2 > Sequestration Via Ocean-Based Negative Emissions Technologies (NETs) The > Internatio > > > > [image: SOS2017 bannerRegistrationOpen 600x150px] > <http://sable.madmimi.com/c/37127?id=2887543.2303.1.c94303a2dc2c5c07d90790b5f2ba98d4> > > > Sustainable Ocean Summit 2017 SESSION SPOTLIGHT > <http://sable.madmimi.com/c/37127?id=2887543.2304.1.a0bb2736e6402dc798ad4baa8e92c3d4> > > > > [image: ***] > > > Ocean NETs: CO2 Sequestration Via Ocean-Based Negative Emissions > Technologies (NETs) > > > > [image: Screen Shot 2017-09-08 at 21.10.24] > <http://sable.madmimi.com/c/37127?id=2887543.2305.1.93a67d8d56ade51b064a6de73b758487> > > > > The International Climate Agreement (Paris 2015) requires negative > emission technologies (NETs) to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere > in order to meet planetary safe limits. NETs need to transfer carbon from > the atmosphere to a safe and environmentally sound storage. Developing and > implementing NETs are critical to all industries with a carbon footprint > who already or will in the near future have a price on their carbon output. > > Although there is much attention to potential land based NETs, there is > growing evidence that the ocean is the dominant player in global carbon > cycling and storage and in the planet’s temperature regulation. This means > that ocean-based NETs must be given serious consideration for their > potential to make a significant contribution to climate mitigation. > > Chemical and biological Ocean NETs are being explored, including: ocean > alkalinity shifts (introducing bicarbonates), direct CO2 injection (seabed > and water column), growing seaweed for deep ocean deposition, expansion of > coastal ecosystems that store carbon, adjusting ocean primary productivity > (e.g. artificial upwelling, addition of macronutrients nitrogen and/or > phosphorus, addition of trace elements such as iron and silicon, enhanced > light penetration, promoting the growth of nitrogen fixing cyanobacteria). > > Researchers, private enterprises and public bodies exploring Ocean NETs > coordination could benefit from a structure and process to enhance > coordination and exchange. The World Ocean Council (WOC) is working to > address this by developing a global Ocean NET platform to bring together > science, policy, business and other interests. > > *The SOS 2017 session on “Ocean NETs: CO2 Sequestration Via Ocean-Based > Negative Emissions Technologies (NETs)”* will address: > • What are the requirements of the International Climate Agreement (Paris > 2015) for negative emission technologies (NET’s) to remove atmospheric CO2 > to meet planetary safe limits for global temperatures? > • What are the potential ocean-based NETs, what science is available on > them and what are the risks and benefits of Ocean NETs? > • What is needed to advance careful, science-based consideration of Ocean > NETs as a potentially viable, important means to address increasing > atmospheric CO2? > > The SOS 2017 session will focus on tangible goals that can assist in > advancing the evaluation of Ocean NETs, e.g. determining the potential > impact and status of Ocean NETs; identifying research gaps and unknowns; > reviewing the cost of implementation of Ocean NETs; reviewing the legal > framework for Ocean NETs; exploring the conceptual design of a future > multipurpose Ocean NET station for capturing CO2, producing food, > generating power, and interacting with other ocean users. 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