Mapmaker seems helpful but not a solution for the problem of finding out
enough information about what one needs nearby; even if and when it extends
to places where most of us live.

Base layer data aside - I just don't see how it could become the
comprehensive repository of place information.  How is any silo going to
ever be able to answer a broad swath of the kinds of questions that we have
of it?  Real solutions have to straddle many data sources - mapmaker,
openstreetmaps, trails.com, flickr, fireeagle, ranger stations, gps add on
packs whatever...

I was reminded of this last week when I drove from Portland to San Fran to
Portland.  I wanted to camp rather than staying at hotels and I tried to
search for campsites as I was visiting each area that I considered camping
in.  My experience I think are typical of what happens to most people when
they are searching for something and I think it shows that work remains:

1) On the way down we stopped near Crescent City and tried to find a
campsite by using the web - nothing seemed to pop up that was clear and
trustworthy.  However by pure chance I found a brochure at the closed Ranger
Station that did have a little camping icon for a place called Nickel Beach,
and this turned out to be just great; free, allowing fires, a short hike at
sunset on a bluff over the pacific ocean - it was great - although I didn't
find it via the web.

2) On the way back I tried to camp near Grants Pass but could not find
anything that I trusted even after searching the web for an hour and driving
around and so stayed at a hotel.  The next morning I found an outdoors
weekly newspaper that did have a map of camping sites in it - unfortunately
a bit too late to be useful.

I must admit, just now , trying to search for 'campground' using wikimapia -
does work:

  http://wikimapia.org/#lat=41.7067538&lon=-124.1209602&z=13&l=0&m=a&v=2

But note how Google Maps fails to reveal the non-commercial option:


http://maps.google.com/maps?um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=campground&near=Crescent+City,+CA&fb=1&view=text&sa=X&oi=local_group&resnum=1&ct=more-results&cd=1

Trails.com is totally useless here - although it does list several other
good choices... and anyway it is behind a 'please pay me wall' that makes it
unacceptable for general use.


http://www.trails.com/advancedfind.asp?GeoSearch=1&lat=41.621564&lon=-124.115388&Distance=20&Activities=CP&area=14071

Other sites do list campgrounds but since there is no map they are totally
useless.  I just can't go and try search for every possibility to find where
it is so those possibilities become unusable:

  http://www.redwood.national-park.com/camping.htm#bc

So my feeling is that if my searches are typical, then we all still have a
ways to go...  and Mapmaker seems like a part of the ecosystem but not a
panacea for my needs at least... the solution seems to be some kind of
better indexing with more precise location information, more trust in some
way...

 - anselm

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Ian White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> finally, a topic worth discussing! if you want to see what the future of a
> goog wiki-map world, india could be a good place to look--sure, they've
> provided a valuable service in creating a base map, but at what cost?
> anybody know if participants were paid or volunteer? given GPS devices or
> loaners? any chance the underlying map data will be released? if i were
> google, i sure as hell wouldn't make it available to anybody else--damn
> smart and cheap way to get a 'good enough' base map. i'm sure g recognizes
> that their 'go it alone approach in a user-contributed world' ain't going to
> give them NVT/TA quality data (love it or not, it is high quality) today,
> but over time it's something that google may find it doesn't have to pay any
> licensing fees for (not that NVT/TA derive much $$$ from the interwebs--it's
> under 5% of their business). But...as g begins to move more into different
> platforms (android, in car nav (don't forget the VW deal), and direct
> acquisition of sat imagery (d!
>  on't forget this one:
> http://mashable.com/2007/07/21/google-image-america/), all your
> fears/hopes/dreams may come true!
>
>
>
> Ian White  ::  Urban Mapping Inc
> 690 Fifth Street  Suite 200  ::  San Francisco  CA  94107
> T.415.946.8170 x80  ::  F.866.385.8266
> blog.urbanmapping.com  ::  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of James Fee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:43 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Geowanking] MapMaker
>
> Why? To cut out the providers and control the data for themselves.  Who
> wants to deal with NAVTEQ or others when they can just pay interns to
> drive cars around cities of the world and take pictures/GPS or get
> Google fan boys to update their maps for free?
>
> --
> James Fee GISP
> RSP Architects
> 502 South Collge Avenue, Suite 203, Tempe, AZ 85281
> 480-889-2095 (w)
> 602-819-2142 (m)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:38 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Geowanking] MapMaker
>
> Good point Kevin. In that case, Google's motive does seem a little more
> suspect, doesn't it?
>
> Why would anyone map Bermuda for Google if it was already mapped?
>
> Landon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Mayall
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:04 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Geowanking] MapMaker
>
> Let's not assume that the countries listed in Google Map Maker are
> "unmapped regions of the world".  Bermuda and Cayman, for example, are
> very well mapped.  Google just doesn't own any data for them.
>
> Kevin (in Bermuda)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:37 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Geowanking] MapMaker
>
> I just checked out the Google Map Maker web application this morning. I
> was pretty impressed with the simple interface.
>
> I've always admired the way Google can tackle a problem and design a
> slick solution. I don't know how I'd live without my G-Mail.
>
> Still, there terms of use really bites the big one. Seems to me like
> these terms would be a deal killer for a lot of volunteer mappers. (I
> sure won't be adding to there database. Why do that when you can
> contribute to Open Street Map?)
>
> It seems like Google is ignoring a principle that can be drawn from open
> source software development: absolute control chokes voluntary
> contributions.
>
> I do, however, think that mapping unknown regions of the world will only
> benefit society as a whole. If the data is publicly accessible, but
> Google makes a dime, is that a horrible thing? They might end up mapping
> something that would have never been mapped otherwise.
>
> Imagine what Google could have accomplished if it had worked with an
> organization like OSM to map unmapped regions of the world. It's too bad
> they were so short-sighted in this respect.
>
> The Sunburned Surveyor
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SteveC
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:51 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Geowanking] MapMaker
>
> What no mention of GMM on geowanking yet? And I was looking forward to
> the disucssion!
>
>        http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=307
>
> Best
>
> Steve
>
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-- 
anselm 415 215 4856 http://hook.org http://makerlab.com
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