On 2014-08-15 at 16:36, genium wrote: > ref: https://fr.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pierre_Berg%C3%A9
? > On 2014-08-15 12:28, Garreau, Alexandre wrote: >> No, it doesn’t limit freedom of speech, because “freedom” of limiting >> someone else freedom isn’t a freedom, but a power > > Do you mean Free Software and LGBT movements share the same goals, Yes. > and should be seen as two facets of the same object? I would better say that each one is only a part of each one of the two facets of the same object. But you “should” not, as I can’t impose my point of view nor my ideas, you have to accept it if you personally find it correct, and otherwise we can still discuss :) After all, free software movement can have many interpretations and is considered as part of many movement by many different people. We can notice that for instance it is really well considered as a “brother movement” by really different —even opposed— ideologies/thoughts, like by libertarians, marxists, leninists, stalinists, national-socialists, nationalists only or even fascists. But promoting free software and letting these people integrate librism into their thought don’t require you to be a nihilist. You can still acknowledge that neonazis are for free software, promote free software —for everybody, beyond their ideas— and still being against them :) > Do I have to support Feminism in order to support Free Software? It depends of what you mean by “support”. If you mean to “agree”, so it’s like I just said. If you mean “do activism”, “work for”, “educate people”, or anything that implies more than just agreeing, no. You don’t have to fight yourself on all sides at the same time, it would be counterproductive. Everyone should do what she’s better at doing, what she likes the most, what she believe the most. But well, just as hoping most hackers aren’t nazis^Wnational-socialists (racists, antisemitic, and/or nationalists), I hope they aren’t neither voluntary sexists, because that would certainly harm a lot free software community. And then remind “being against sexism” and “being feminist” are the same thing, even if some masculinist lobbies are trying to make you think feminists are a stereotypical minority of deaf and blind hysteric people. > On 2014-08-15 12:34, Garreau, Alexandre wrote: >> actually it’s not your talk that we need to fix, but the policy, which > > Do you have to fix this sort of humour? > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fLQb60xKL4 I didn’t found that offending nor funny, just maybe based on a bit too much of ignorance. What we would have to fix is the ignorance of people finding that funny because misunderstanding the subject. > http://www.egaliteetreconciliation.fr/Dieudonne-devoile-un-extrait-de-son-spectacle-Asu-Zoa-26699.html I found hard to get the URL going to what’s actually a youtube link you could have directly gave (which is, for others: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VNAYLlxjBE>), because of necessity of enabling potentially nasty javascript and external requests. A youtube link is readable by many free softwares such as VLC, youtube-dl, quvi, cclive, minitube, and a lot others. But without the youtube video ID you need to actually execute proprietary (and potentially dangerous in terms of privacy) javascript from some companies who we know that it haves links with NSA and a lot of way too curious (and non privacy-respectful) governments. So I just had the time to see this website mostly present extreme right ideas (you know, the sexists (more: antifeminists), nationalists (even worst: national-socialist, the slogan says everything: “left of work and right of values: for a national reconciliation”; everything is here: reactionnism/traditionnalism, negation of class struggle and of its international valence, nationalism and nationalist socialism… the very definition of fascism), fascists one), such as “complementarity”, “antifa violence”, and negation of things like gender studies (not “théorie du genre” which actually doesn’t exist as a unique and defined thing and is just a name used by extreme-right people to discredit feminists and LGBT ideas), class struggle, etc. and diffusing the ideas of extreme-right people (though all of those aren’t so evidently/completely of extreme right, such as Dieudonné where it remains ambiguous to most of people, but we could recall about people like Alain Soral (the founder of this actual thing) calling themself national-socialists). So cf. what I said on neonazis. Until reading this link, I was thinking I was going to reach godwin point, now I don’t anymore. A godwin point is when you *compare*, not when you *notice*. If nation had even a little of importance for me, I would be ashamed to have such things brought here by one of the few other French people expressing themselves here. Fortunately I’m don’t :) (Tip: check how many people don’t too among organizers, think to how much sense it would make anyway in any international voluntarist community.) <blabla>And after all fascism is by nature an universal antiuniversality equally present everywhere… or, well, it depends, it seems we have more near these parts of Europe unfortunately… yeah, precisely in the three nearest countries of here, ironically :p (but reactionnism creating itself reaction, personally I prefer to see here in Germany as much pirate party posters as extreme-right banners than only some extreme-right banners (and the rest quite invisible) like in France… good luck (literally and sincerely) to who’s going there too…).</blabla> Oh and about the video: except the rest of the sketch that can be funny, the sexist part, since it’s *clearely* sexist, in a time where he’s already saying a lot of shit and trolling a lot for humoristic purpose, I think it’s not so nasty in itself if you already know it has to be interpreted as sexist shit :) The problem, like before, is the *context*, and the people hearing it. I would say that if it were only in front of educated people on the subject, there wouldn’t be problems because it could just be “aha he’s using sexist nonsensical and absurd unjustified arguments x)”, but it is possible (even probable, because of his typical audience) that some anti-feminist people, it could just reinforce their ideas and participate in sexism and especially its legitimating trough tradition. So that doesn’t mean we should censor/remove it, because it has its own event and people attending to it were willing to, but yeah, at least to fix. It’s just not the humorist we have to fix, but the society hearing it. > On 2014-08-15 12:52, Garreau, Alexandre wrote: >> The chart need more clarification. > > Who made the list of banned jokes? First I don’t know who made the chart, and that’s irrelevant, we need to fix it, not to blame who miswrote it. And then we need to make a list of what exclude people or make people feel excluded, not a closed list of some banned joke that we would have to update every time someone make a potentially nasty “joke”. > On 2014-08-15 15:34, Garreau, Alexandre wrote: >> the hippie spirit in hacker culture at MIT > > AFAIK, the hacker culture had his own identity at MIT, see Daniel > Weinreb, Mike McMahon, David Moon and RMS himself. I read an interview > of Richard Stallman in which he said that he was not part of the > hippie spirit of the time. IMO, the free software movement is unique > on its own. Yes, nothing is never completely white or black, it’s always more complicated than it appears ;) So just as we can’t say free software culture would be essentially hacker culture which would essentially be sexist, we can’t say hacker culture is essentially hippie culture, it is of course more than that. PS: I’m sad to miss the debate about this chart… Great event anyway, can’t wait for next GHM/CCC (is it near Munich too?) :)
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