Hi all.

Alan Horkan ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Sven Neumann wrote:
> > Alan Horkan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > Given my previous comments that is understandable and I think
> > > discoverability is important but it doesn't make sense to have a
> > > seperate menu item for every obscure feature and to me this is
> > > most definately an obscure feature.
> >
> > It has been requested over and over again so there are certainly
> > people who see a need for it.
> I never claimed some people wouldn't find it useful.

You did however harp on the uselessness of this feature and advocate its
removal. Despite numerous people supporting it. Just because you don't
see the use of this feature that doesn't mean that it has none.

> > > Perhaps I might have been less quick to complain if it had been only
> > > one menu item that shows a dialog but it is not, it is a submenu
> > > with several menu items and that seems a lot like clutter to me.
> >
> > It is a submenu, so it is only a single menu entry
> i dont follow that logic

Simple: If a menu entry pops up a dialog or if a menu entry pops up a
submenu is irrelevant for the menu itself. It is exactly one menu entry
in the menu. It doesn't clutter less or more than a dialog.

> > and thus certainly not clutter. It would have been clutter to use a
> > dialog for something that can be easily done using a small submenu.
> i think a small dialog with all the options in one place would not be any
> worse than the current setup

It would hamper the speed to switch between different settings
(menu-selection plus two clicks until you get your desired option  vs.
one menu-selection) and thus would cause inconvenience.

There is no advantage of a dialog. At least I don't see any.

Ok, the rest of the Mail are ramblings about discussions and some
personal remarks, mostly (but not exclusively) targeted at Alan.
I decided to post this into the public because I hope that it might help
to avoid personal incidents like this in the future.

> > Can we please stop this useless discussion here?
> 'Useless discussion'.

Sure useless. Many people did state that they like that feature. So far
you're the only one who doesn't like it and wants to change it.
Each party has stated its position, there is nothing to discuss unless
some new facts come into the game. So far there aren't any and
prolonging the thread with no arguments doesn't help.

> > I get the impression that you are trying very hard to find something to
> > criticise.
> I'm not trying very hard to find it, finding problems is relatively easy
> finding solutions and finding the time to provide feedback in way you will
> actually listen to is what is time consuming.

>From my point of view the most things brought up by you are details.
While I like attention to the detail I don't like that these things tend
to need lots of discussion. The issue here is a perfect example:
Configurability of the border color. This discussion should have been
over when everybody except you agreed that it is useful. Suddenly about
14 Mails pop up, 5 of these by you not understanding the point of the
others. This does not help.

> What am trying hard to do is discuss ideas and find ways to improve things
> but you seem unwilling to tolerate polite and resonable discussion,
> perhaps you expect ideas to come out of nowhere fully formed or
> implementations to be just right first time.

Right now you are discussing a feature you don't use with people who
like it. You make a big issue of something that is a non-issue for the
other participants. An important part of a "polite and reasonable
discussion" is to know when to stop. Sorry, you missed that point.

> > Why do you have to show so much disrespect for other people's work?

Ok, after battering on Alan here's one for Sven: I hate it when you pull
out the "Disrespect"-bat. IMO it is a Totschlagargument and not very
helpful. I don't think that exchanging arguments Gimp-related things
shows disrespect on the developers. To the contrary: Caring about
aspects of the GIMP is a way to show respect. And when you think that a
discussion wastes your time, ignore it. Pointing at the opponent and
put him in bad light is not helpful for the discussion and it does not
even help to stop it.

It however helps to prevent future discussions started by people who are
more shy but might have brilliant ideas. Pity.

              [EMAIL PROTECTED]              http://simon.budig.de/
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