I should had rephrased it as 'most Portuguese who went to Goa'. For every ship, there was only the captain and a few educated/aristocratic people onboard - but the ratio disparity between them and the sailors, was very obvious. Often these sailors stayed back, it was a one way trip for them. There were lots of mutinies on board and hence Fort Aguada was born. All the mutineers were sent there, as soon as it reached Goan shores but before the ships landed at Old Goa. The reason there was a Ilha dos Fidalgos, it is a testament of the social divide between what they thought of themselves and what they had portrayed the local populace to be. Hence they had created a small niche area for themselves. Yes, they did contribute a lot for the betterment of Goa and Goans. Joao Paulo Cota ________________________________ From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of John de Figueiredo <[email protected]> Sent: 05 October 2024 01:46 To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’
Not every Portuguese who came to Goa, settled in Goa, and married Goans or within their own group was “uneducated, from the countryside, rough, brute, and with hardly any etiquette.” This is a stereotype unsupported by the data. Many came from Portuguese aristocratic families, refined, and educated, and they contributed immensely to the culture of Goa. In fact, the Island of Chorão, where many of them lived, was known as “Ilha dos Fidalgos” (Island of Nobility). Here is an excellent reference on this subject published by Fundação Oriente: Jorge Forjaz and José Francisco de Noronha Os Luso-Descendentes da Índia Portuguesa. Fundação Oriente, Lisboa 2003 ISBN: 972-785-044-8. This book describes the biographies of more than 300 Portuguese families established in Goa, Daman, Diu, Bassein, and Mumbai. John M. de Figueiredo Sent from my iPhone On Oct 4, 2024, at 8:17 PM, Roland Francis <[email protected]> wrote: So much for the ‘elite’ Goan families who take endless pleasure in claiming to be progeny of the Portuguese presence in Goa - the administrators and the police and army. Roland Francis 416-453-3371 On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 4:52 AM Joao Paulo Cota <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Quite a few historical books mention about the nature of Portuguese who went to places like Goa. They were often uneducated, from the country side, rough, brutes and with hardly any etiquete. Hence, their needs were obviously more of a very basic nature... Possibly why race was never an issue to them to have personal relationships with the native population, as long as their personal needs were met. Also, on other reference material, educated Portuguese often made highly derogatory remarks on the native population, calling them 'barbarians' and 'savages'. Of course, the average natives of the land would not have any universities and libraries to get themselves any refined education. Making such lame comparisons, only showed their lack of intellect and reasoning, despite having attended schools and colleges. There is hardly any evidence that these higher class colonisers have mingled as much with the local 'barbarian' populace, as much as the uneducated, coloniser 'brutes' did. Hence there was an unspoken, racial issue based on social class. Vasco da Gama never discovered India, the arabs did in the 8th century. He would ha been nowhere if not for the help of the Omani navigator Ibn Majid who had been requested to guide VDG to the Malabar coast in india in 1498. Else he would had met the same fate as Colombo the drunkard, who got lost in the Carribean and assuming he reached India, called the place the West Indies. History needs a bit of an update. ________________________________ From: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: 03 October 2024 11:23 To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’ Alberto, The Portuguese stole as much as any other nation. The Portuguese difference was the willingness of mixing with other ethnic groups, from the casual sexual intercourse to marriage and to the ability to "go native". We might on occasion consider the "natives" primitive, but that never stopped us from having normal intercourse with them. Considerations of racial purity never came to our minds. We might not have been very tolerant in respect of religion, but race differences never bothered us... Nuno Cardoso da Silva Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2024 at 11:40 AM From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’ John. Vasco (Vasco foi Gamar, as some Portuguese say) attacked ships in the Indian Ocean, killed their crew and looted everything. Do you think the Portuguese were different? What do you think of the black slaves from Africa taken to the American continent? The Inquisition in Goa? You cannot whitewash the history recorded and archived in France, Venice and Florence (Italy), the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, India, etc. (The verb Gamar in Portuguese means to steal). Alberto, professor aposentado de Historia. ----- Mensagem de John de Figueiredo <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> --------- Data: Wed, 2 Oct 2024 13:07:12 -0400 De: John de Figueiredo <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Assunto: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’ Para: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> SOME Europeans “did everything they could to get their hands on the wealth of the Asians”. But there were other Europeans (Portuguese) who did not do that and some who called to task those who stole (like Vasco da Gama when he was Viceroy of Portuguese India). John M. de Figueiredo Sent from my iPhone On Oct 2, 2024, at 11:15 AM, [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> wrote: -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. 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