The discussion has been very inyeresting. At Vasco de Gama´s there were no Pacts, no International Law , no UNO. We live in the 21st century. Should we allow "big fish to eat small fish" the same way USA did with Venezuela? António Bernardo Colaço A quinta-feira, 8 de janeiro de 2026 à(s) 13:04:40 UTC, Edgar Valles escreveu:
> Concerning the accusation that "Many of the sailors who accompanied Gama > were CRIMINALS RELEASED FROM PRISON", this is not entirely true. Most of > the sailors were people from the interior of Portugal, who had never see > the sea and were not aware of the danger of the oceans. People who lived in > the littoral of Portugal were afraid of the sea and didn't want to go to > the ships (one third of the ships that went to India sank).Of course, there > were also criminals. as there were criminals in all armies. > Concerning Angola, it is not true that "a group of far-left activists from > Portugal landed in Luanda and tried to overthrow the legitimate government > of Agostinho Neto". As Albert mentioned,the winners write History, not the > defeated. > Angola is now one of the most corrupt regimes in the world. A very rich > country, where people live miserably. This began to happen soon after > independence. > A very large group of militants of the liberation movement tried to avoid > the path of corruption and keep the way to a real independence. > Agostinho Neto and his followers aniquilated this group and many angolan > innocents, murdering about 30 000 angolans... > Edgar Valles > Lisbon > > > <[email protected]> escreveu (quarta, 7/01/2026 à(s) 15:12): > >> Talking about the wars in the Indian subcontinent, Kadamba, Yadava, etc., >> doesn't justify anything, because in Europe there were also wars between >> the Portuguese and Spanish, Germans and French, Napoleon and Hitler wanted >> to invade Russia and were defeated, etc., but these were wars between >> neighbors on the same continent. (Europe was responsible for both world >> wars). >> >> What do Asians, Africans, native Brazilians, First Nations of Canada, the >> USA, Australia, and New Zealand think when Vasco, Albuquerque, Columbus, >> Pizarro, and Cortés are mentioned? That they were pirates who came from >> afar to steal, enslave, etc. Even today in Hungary and Poland, the Mongols >> of Genkis Khan are classified as savages who came to steal. >> >> The opinions of these people are WORTH MORE THAN the illusory grandeur of >> the invaders. >> >> The statues erected of them in the former colonies were torn down because >> they celebrated and represented the excruciating suffering of innocent >> people. These statues were transferred to museums so that future >> generations could learn about the past. >> >> Monuments honoring Josef Stalin disappeared from Eastern European >> countries after the fall of the Soviet Union. In 2003, US Army soldiers >> destroyed the statue of Saddam Hussein in Karbala after the invasion of >> Iraq. In the US, several monuments linked to slavery and colonialism, such >> as statues of Columbus, were targeted. In the United Kingdom, the statue of >> the trafficker Edward Colston was torn down. And in São Paulo, protesters >> set fire to a statue of the bandeirante Borba Gato - a fugitive from the >> law, gold smuggler, linked to the enslavement of Indians and blacks in >> Brazil and who played a prominent role in the expeditions into the >> Brazilian hinterland. >> >> Many of the sailors who accompanied Gama were CRIMINALS RELEASED FROM >> PRISON. >> >> Even after Angola's independence, for example, a group of far-left >> activists from Portugal landed in Luanda and tried to overthrow the >> legitimate government of Agostinho Neto. They were repelled and thrown into >> a mass grave. This is anti-colonial history. >> >> History is a science based on data, not on public opinion? History is >> based on the testimonies of the conquerors/victors, based on ideologies, >> racial supremacy, etc. It is not an exact science. Mathematics is >> considered an exact science. So, 2 plus 2 equals 4 and there's no arguing >> about it, and it's the same throughout the universe. >> Alberto >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Mensagem de Edgar Valles <> --------- >> Data: Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:04:30 +0000 >> De: Edgar Valles <> >> Assunto: Re: [GRN] Vasco da Gama >> Para: >> >> Very good and deep explanation , about Portuguese role in Goa, the one >> made by John de Figueiredo. I agree with it. >> However, the last conclusion may arise controversy: >> "The Portuguese only became foreigners in India on August 15, 1947, the >> day when the “tryst with Destiny” occurred (to use the famous expression of >> Jawaharlal Nehru).". >> This would be true if Goa was integrated into British India. But it was >> not the case, Goa was a Portuguese colony and the independence of India >> didn't change its status. >> For example, Indonesia became independent in 1945 and Portugal ruled >> Timor Leste until Indonesia invaded it in 1975. Portuguese didn't become >> foreigners in Timor Leste in 1945, just because Indonesia became >> independent. >> By the way, as the people of Timor Leste didn't accept the invasion by >> Indonesia and fought, they were able to exercise the right of self >> determination in a referendum and on the 2th May 2002 independence was >> proclaimed. Indonesia , the invasor,was forced to give up Timor Leste. >> According to the principles of Bandung Conference in 1955 and the United >> Nation rules, people of a colonial territory should be allowed to decide >> their own future. So, if Portuguese presence in Goa was legimitated till >> 1947, it didn't become illegitimate just because India became independent >> in 1947. >> It would be different if Goans expressed the decision to be part of India >> at that time. Then, Portuguese would be "foreigners in Goa" from that >> year... >> My thoughts are not politically motivated, as the past belongs to the >> past. .. >> Edgar Valles >> Lisbon >> >> >> >> >> >> JOHN DE FIGUEIREDO <[email protected]> escreveu (domingo, 4/01/2026 >> à(s) 06:42): >> >>> Let us not be elitist when judging Vasco da Gama. If he came from a >>> lower social class (meaning, I trust, that he came from a poor family with >>> a low educational level), then my admiration for him is even greater. >>> Clearly, he had to overcome a significant social disadvantage to master and >>> excel in the science and art of navigation and to convince his King that a >>> “commoner” like him was up to the extraordinary mission of commanding a >>> fleet from Portugal to India and back. And he did this, not once or twice, >>> but 5 times. He connected the dots and demonstrated how this could be >>> achieved. Was he helped by others? Sure. He was helped by the discovery of >>> Bartolomeu Dias that Africa had an end and by the Arab pilot who guided him >>> from East Africa to India. But so were Watson and Crick in their discovery >>> of the structure of DNA. They were helped by the previous discoveries of >>> Erwin Chargaff and Rosalind Franklin. This is how human knowledge advances, >>> step by step, one discovery leading to the next one. His important >>> achievement set the stage for an unprecedented globalization of knowledge. >>> Was he perfect? Far from it. Understanding something is not the same as >>> excusing it. What he did to the Muslim pilgrims is abominable by today’s >>> standards, but it was (as Frederick said) fair game in his time. In 1469, >>> Virupaksha I, Emperor of Vijayanagara, ordered the massacre of thousands of >>> Muslims in Bhatkal. The few who survived fled to (guess where) Goa, where >>> they found a home and thrived. Let us not be harsher in our judgment of >>> Vasco da Gama just because he was a European or he was from a “lower >>> class.” It really does not matter what Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, >>> or Parsis think of Vasco da Gama. History is a science based on data, not >>> on public opinion. My point is that as Viceroy of India, his message to >>> fellow Europeans was: “If you are corrupt and steal from the public >>> treasury, I will punish you.” And that is exactly what he did, and this is >>> why we, Goans, should respect and admire Vasco da Gama as a person with >>> integrity. It was a risky decision. With the benefit of hindsight, we can >>> say that several of his successors as Governors or Viceroys (including our >>> own Barnardo Peres da Silva) were deposed by military coups when they >>> attempted to do what he did. A Secretary of State (European), who was, like >>> Gama, a person with integrity, was assassinated in plain daylight in front >>> of the Government Palace in Panjim by some fellow Europeans who saw him as >>> an obstacle to their schemes and scams. Imagine a scenario in which Vasco >>> da Gama looked the other way and may have even pocketed some money himself. >>> Today, we would correctly say that he was a thief and a party to a >>> cover-up. But that is not what he did. >>> >>> >>> Why did the Portuguese occupy and settle in Goa? Good question. The >>> last time I heard this question was from my friend Luiz de Camoes. He had >>> Vasco da Gama being asked: “Quem te trouxe a estoutro mundo, tão longe da >>> tua Pátria Lusitana?” (“Who brought you to this other world, so far away >>> from your Lusitanian Motherland? "). This question raises all sorts of >>> other questions. What made the Kadambas infiltrate Goa after they were >>> defeated by the Chalukyas and conquer Goa, defeating its legitimate Goan >>> Kings? What made the Yadavas conquer Goa, terrorize the Goans, and impose >>> their language (Marathi) on the Goans? What made the Bahmanis and the Delhi >>> Muslims invade Goa and terrorize the Goans? What made Vijayanagara conquer >>> Goa? What forced Goa into the Sultanate of Bijapur? The only answer that >>> comes to my mind is what my teacher of History at the Liceu, Rev. Dr. >>> Antonio Garcia, S.J., used to say: “Just like in the big ocean the big fish >>> eat the small fish, so the stronger peoples invade and conquer the weaker >>> ones.” Happens even to this day, right under our noses. It seems to me that >>> the fundamental misconception in this conversation is to view the >>> Portuguese in Vasco da Gama’s time as foreigners. In fact, they were not >>> “more foreigners” or “less foreigners” in Gama’s time than the Kadambas, >>> the Yadavas, and all those other guys. The Portuguese only became >>> foreigners in India on August 15, 1947, the day when the “tryst with >>> Destiny” occurred (to use the famous expression of Jawaharlal Nehru). This >>> is why an agent of Vijayanagara approached Afonso de Albuquerque with the >>> assent of some Goans and asked him to free Goa from Bijapur. >>> Sorry for this long note. >>> John M. de Figueiredo >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1112659100.3469483.1767508948056%40mail.yahoo.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1112659100.3469483.1767508948056%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to >> [email protected] >> . >> To view this discussion, visit >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAEXcPuqXto0rsP4rc8-PuMTFt%2BWLpcPAe-L12TwP30-6wzAcew%40mail.gmail.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAEXcPuqXto0rsP4rc8-PuMTFt%2BWLpcPAe-L12TwP30-6wzAcew%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> >> . >> >> >> ----- Fim da mensagem de Edgar Valles <> ----- >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/20260107102704.Horde.C1gNGNWJO6dDcdNk9WDbXmj%40mail.sapo.pt >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/20260107102704.Horde.C1gNGNWJO6dDcdNk9WDbXmj%40mail.sapo.pt?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. 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